• Cethin
      link
      fedilink
      English
      5
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Why did you decide to go back to Apple instead of giving Linux a try? It’s free so it literally would have cost nothing to try, and you could keep your other OS(s).

        • Cethin
          link
          fedilink
          English
          21 year ago

          By mobile app integration, do you mean a connection between your mobile phone and your computer? KDE Connect is pretty good from my experience. It has more features than the Windows alternative at least (and I think there’s even a Windows version oddly enough).

          If you mean running a mobile app in the system, I have no experience with that.

      • @JustARegularNerd@aussie.zone
        link
        fedilink
        English
        31 year ago

        Good grief, I had a lady behind the counter try to berate me onto the store’s rewards card and she wasn’t as pushy as this comment.

        • Cethin
          link
          fedilink
          English
          51 year ago

          It’s pushy to ask why someone made a large purchase when there’s a free alternative they might not have tried that they may or may not like better? Unlike buying an Apple product, it takes little effort and no cost to just boot up Linux and give it a shot. Some people won’t like it and that’s fine. It’d be pushy to say you will like it better, which is not what I said.

  • Sparking
    link
    fedilink
    English
    251 year ago

    16 gb optiplexes on sale for 85 dollars on eBay. Dont come with windows, but neither do macs :P

  • Echo Dot
    link
    fedilink
    34
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    Apple exec doesn’t actually understand how computers work and think that that actually might be a reasonable arguement.

    It doesn’t matter how good your processor is if you can only bank 8 GB of something into memory it’s going to be slow. The only way an 8 GB device would beat a 16 GB device would be if the 16 GB device had the world’s slowest processor. Like something from 2005. Taking stuff out of RAM is the single slowest operation you can perform other than loading from a hard drive.

    • @LoganNineFingers@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      4
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Apple exec doesn’t actually understand how computers work and think that that actually might be a reasonable arguement

      I think a lot of Apple users fit this bill too so it doesn’t matte much if this is the messaging, a fair amount of people will believe it.

  • @Blackmist@feddit.uk
    link
    fedilink
    English
    941 year ago

    Just upgrade the RAM yourself.

    Oh wait, you can’t because it’s 2023 and it’s become inexplicably acceptable to solder it to the motherboard.

    • RickRussell_CA
      link
      fedilink
      English
      121 year ago

      It’s not “inexplicable”.

      DIMM mounting brackets introduce significant limitations to maximum bandwidth. SOC RAM offers huge benefits in bandwidth improvement and latency reduction. Memory bandwidth on the M2 Max is 400GB/second, compared to a max of 64GB/sec for DDR5 DIMMs.

      It may not be optimizing for the compute problem that you have, and that’s fine. But it’s definitely optimizing for compute problems that Apple believes to be high priority for its customers.

      • @Blackmist@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        431 year ago

        Ah yes, it’s the SSD that’s soldered.

        Just 300 of your English pounds to upgrade from 512GB to 1TB.

        Meanwhile, a 2TB drive at PS5 speeds is under £100.

        For unupgradable kit, the pricing is grotesque.

        • DaDragon
          link
          fedilink
          31 year ago

          I mean, the NAND chips can be replaced fairly effectively if you know what you’re doing

          • @Kidplayer_666@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            151 year ago

            Actually no. There’s some pairing trickery going on on the SoC level, so if you change the NAND chips by higher capacity ones without apple’s special sauce, you’ll just get an unbootsble system

            • @Skirmish@beehaw.org
              link
              fedilink
              81 year ago

              And paging in & out of RAM frequently is probably one of the quickest ways to wear out the NAND.

              Put it all together and you have a system that breaks itself and can’t be repaired. The less RAM you buy the quicker the NAND will break.

            • DaDragon
              link
              fedilink
              21 year ago

              I was under the impression that had been solved by third parties? Or is chip cloning not enough?

        • @NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org
          link
          fedilink
          16
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Apple has put a lot of effort into (successfully) creating a customer-base that thinks overpriced goods and different colored texts make them in a special club, I’m not surprised that an exec thought this excuse would fly

          • monsieur_jean
            link
            fedilink
            151 year ago

            It’s a bit more complex than that (and you probably know it).

            When you enter the Apple ecosystem you basically sign a contract with them : they sell you overpriced goods, but in exchange you get a consistent, coherent and well thought-out experience across the board. Their UX is excellent. Their support is good. Things work well, applications are easy to use and pretty stable and well built. And if they violate your privacy like the others, at least they don’t make the open-bar sale of your data their fucking business model (wink wink Google).

            Of course you there’s a price to pay. Overpriced products, limited UI/UX options, no interoperability, little control over your data. And when there’s that one thing that doesn’t work, no luck. But your day to day life within the Apple ecosystem IS enjoyable. It’s a nice golden cage with soft pillows.

            I used to be a hardcore PC/Linux/Android user. Over the last few years I gradually switched to a full Apple environment : MacBook, iPhone, iPad… I just don’t have time to “manage” my hardware anymore. Nor the urge to do it. I need things to work out of the box in a predictable way. I don’t want a digital mental load. Just a simple UX, consistency across my devices and good apps (and no Google, fuck Google). Something I wouldn’t have with an Android + PC setup. :)

            The whole “special club” argument is bullshit, and I hope we grow out of it. Neither the Apple nor the Google/Microsoft environments are satisfactory. Not even speaking of Linux and FOSS. We must aim higher.

            • @NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org
              link
              fedilink
              11 year ago

              Yea sorry but I disagree with the vast majority of things you said. Consistent, coherent, and well thought out experiences are pretty par for the course at this point, regardless of what flagship phone company you’re buying from. The UX is great for people who grow up with the UX, just like android UX is great for people who grow up with it. Android users who switch to Apple generally think Apple’s UX is dogshit, and vice versa. The UX argument is trash and the reality of it is that people just think whatever UX they’re used to is the more intuitive one. Support is pretty much the same in my experience between the two, and I have an android personal phone and an apple work phone. The major difference is the image that Apple support airs is better. The vast majority of popular Android applications are just as stable and usable as Apple apps, and the ones that aren’t are often niche enough that similar apps aren’t even on the apple appstore. So it’s a question of basically the same service for most apps, and then either no service or degraded service for lesser apps.

              The one thing they have over android is the security argument, which is fair to an extent, but not this bulwark that a lot of people like to pretend it is. The Fappening, for example, still got plenty of explicit images from Apple phones.

              All in all, apple is an advertising company first, and a tech company second, with admittedly improved security, but also admittedly security that isn’t good enough to justify the price hike.

            • @rwhitisissle@beehaw.org
              link
              fedilink
              6
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I’m gonna have to argue against a few of these points:

              When you enter the Apple ecosystem you basically sign a contract with them : they sell you overpriced goods, but in exchange you get a consistent, coherent and well thought-out experience across the board.

              Consistent: yes. Every Apple device leverages a functionally very similar UI. That said, the experience is, in my opinion, not very coherent or well thought out. Especially if you are attempting to leverage their technology from the standpoint of someone like a Linux power user. The default user experience is frustratingly warped around the idea that the end user is an idiot who has no idea how to use a terminal and who only wants access to the default applications provided with the OS.

              Things work well

              Things work…okay. But try installing, uninstalling, and then reinstalling a MySQL DB on a macbook and then spend an hour figuring out why your installation is broken. Admittedly, that’s because you’re probably installing it with Homebrew, but that’s the other point: if you want to do anything of value on it, you have to use a third party application like Homebrew to do it. The fact that you have to install and leverage a third party package manager is unhinged for an ecosystem where everything is so “bundled” together by default.

              Of course you there’s a price to pay. Overpriced products, limited UI/UX options, no interoperability, little control over your data. And when there’s that one thing that doesn’t work, no luck. But your day to day life within the Apple ecosystem IS enjoyable. It’s a nice golden cage with soft pillows.

              I guess the ultimate perspective is one in which you have to be happy surrendering control over so much to Apple. But then again, you could also just install EndeavorOS with KDE Plasma or any given flavor of Debian distribution with any DE of your choice, install KDE Connect on your PC and phone, and get 95 percent of the experience Apple offers right out of the box, with about 100x the control over your system.

              I used to be a hardcore PC/Linux/Android user. Over the last few years I gradually switched to a full Apple environment : MacBook, iPhone, iPad… I just don’t have time to “manage” my hardware anymore.

              I don’t know of anyone who would describe themselves as a hardcore “PC/Linux user,” or what this means to you. I’m assuming by PC you mean Windows. But people who are really into Linux generally don’t like MacOS or Windows, and typically for all the same reasons. I tolerate a Windows machine for video game purposes, but if I had to use it for work I’d immediately install Virtualbox and work out of a Linux VM. For the people who are really into Linux, the management of the different parts of it is, while sometimes a pain in the ass, also part of the fun. It’s the innate challenge of something that can only be mastered by technical proficiency. If that’s not for you, totally fine.

              The whole “special club” argument is bullshit, and I hope we grow out of it.

              It’s less argument and more of a general negative sentiment people hold towards Apple product advocates. You can look up the phenomenon of “green bubble discrimination.” It’s a vicious cycle in which the ecosystem works seamlessly for people who are a part of it, but Apple intentionally makes leaving that ecosystem difficult and intentionally draws attention to those who interact with the people inside of it who are not part of it. Apple products also often are associated with a higher price tag: they’re status symbols as much as they are functional tools. People recognize a 2000 dollar Macbook instantly. Only a few people might recognize a comparably priced Thinkpad. In a lot of cases, they’ll just assume the Macbook was expensive and the non-Macbook was cheap. And you might say, “yeah, but that’s because of people, not because of Mac.” But it would be a lie to say that Apple isn’t a company intensely invested in brand recognition and that it doesn’t know it actively profits from these perceptions.

              • monsieur_jean
                link
                fedilink
                61 year ago

                Everything you say is what past me would have answered ten years ago, thinking current me is an idiot. Yet here we are. ;)

                You are right and make good points. But you are not 99% of computer users. Just considering installing a linux distro puts you in the top 1% most competent.

                (Speaking of which, I still have a laptop running EndeavourOS + i3. Three months in my system is half broken because of infrequent updates. I could fix it, I just don’t have the motivation to do so. Or the time. I’ll probably just reinstall Mint.)

                • @rwhitisissle@beehaw.org
                  link
                  fedilink
                  41 year ago

                  Everything you say is what past me would have answered ten years ago, thinking current me is an idiot. Yet here we are. ;)

                  Wow. Talk about coincidences…

                  you are not 99% of computer users. Just considering installing a linux distro puts you in the top 1% most competent.

                  I’m a dumbass and if I can do it anyone can. But, yes, technology is a daunting thing to most people. Intuition and experience go far. That said, it’s literally easier today than it ever has been. You put in the installation usb, click next a whole bunch, reboot, and you have a working machine. Is it sometimes more complicated than that and you have to do BIOS/UEFI bullshit? Sure, but past that hurdle it’s smooth sailing.

                  (Speaking of which, I still have a laptop running EndeavourOS + i3. Three months in my system is half broken because of infrequent updates. I could fix it, I just don’t have the motivation to do so. Or the time. I’ll probably just reinstall Mint.)

                  Ah, the joys of rolling release distros. Endeavor has been stable for me so far. I’m running it on an X1 Thinkpad. Generally works more reliably than my own vanilla arch installs and more low profile tiling window managers. I’ve found myself sticking to KDE Plasma for a DE because it’s so consistent and has enough features to keep me happy without having to spend all my time fine tuning my own UX, which I just don’t care about. My realization has been that arch distros are best suited for machines running integrated graphics and popular DEs, rather than ones with separate cards and more niche or highly customizable DEs. Prevents you from having to futs about with things like Optimus, with graphics drivers being the primary cause of headaches for that distro, per my experience. That said, I used to run an old Acer laptop with arch and a tiling window manager called qtile. Qtile was great, but every other update completely altered the logic and structure of how it read the config file for it, so the damn thing broke constantly. I’m like…just decide how you want the config to look and keep that. Or at least allow for backwards compatibility. But they didn’t.

  • @soulfirethewolf@lemdro.id
    link
    fedilink
    English
    61 year ago

    I still hate that they killed the mid-range model. Your option is the lower end MacBook Air with no fan, or the higher-end MacBook Pro. There is no in between.

    I absolutely love the snappiness of the m1 chip in my current 2020 MBP, and how much more efficient ARM is compared to x86, but it seems really hard to justify going an extra 300$ in the future.

    I really just wish they would bring back the original MacBook (with no suffixes at the end)

    • @soulfirethewolf@lemdro.id
      link
      fedilink
      English
      11 year ago

      I kind of want to go for the framework laptop, but I still do like ARM and given I want to do more stuff around machine learning in the future, which is already kind of difficult to run large language models with only 8 gigabytes of RAM, it at least kind of runs with ARM. On my basement PC, It will barely do anything

      • @tal@lemmy.today
        link
        fedilink
        11 year ago

        There are some external GPUs that can be USB-attached. Dunno about for the Mac. Latency hit, but probably not as significant for current LLM use than games, as you don’t have a lot of data being pushed over the bus once the model is up.

  • @narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    261 year ago

    Do they store 32-bit integers as 16-bit internally or how does macOS magically only use half the RAM? Hint: it doesn’t.

    Even if macOS was more lightweight than Windows - which might well be true will all the bs processes running in Windows 11 especially - third party multiplatform apps will use similar amounts of memory no matter the platform they run on. Even for simple use cases, 8 GB is on the limit (though it’ll likely still be fine) as Electron apps tend to eat RAM for breakfast. Love it or hate it Apple, people often (need to) use these memory-hogging apps like Teams or even Spotify, they are not native Swift apps.

    I love my M1 Max MacBook Pro, but fuck right off with that bullshit, it’s straight up lying.

    • @Kazumara@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      91 year ago

      Pied Piper middle out compression for your RAM

      But seriously it’s so ridiculous especially since he said it in an interview with a machine learning guy. Exactly the type of guy who needs a lot of RAM for his own processes working on his own data using his own programs. Where the OS has no control over precision, access patterns or the data streaming architecture.

      • Echo Dot
        link
        fedilink
        41 year ago

        Apple executives haven’t actually been computed guys for years now. They’re all sales and have no idea how computers work. They constantly saying stupid things that make very little sense, but no one ever calls them on it because Apple.

    • @abhibeckert@beehaw.org
      link
      fedilink
      2
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Do they store 32-bit integers as 16-bit internally or how does macOS magically only use half the RAM? Hint: it doesn’t.

      As a Mac programmer I can give you a real answer… there are three major differences… but before I go into those, almost all integers in native Mac apps are 64 bit. 128 bit is probably more common than 32.

      First of all Mac software generally doesn’t use garbage collection. It uses “Automatic Reference Counting” which is far more efficient. Back when computers had kilobytes of RAM, reference counting was the standard with programmer painstakingly writing code to clear things from memory the moment it wasn’t needed anymore. The automatic version of that is the same, except the compiler writes the code for you… and it tends to do an even better job than a human, since it doesn’t get sloppy.

      Garbage collection, the norm on modern Windows and Linux code, frankly sucks. Code that, for example, reads a bunch of files on disk might store all of those files in RAM for for ten seconds even if it only needs one of them in RAM at a time. That burn be 20GB of memory and push all of your other apps out into swap. Yuck.

      Second, swap, while it’s used less (due to reference counting), still isn’t a “last resort” on Macs. Rather it’s a best practice to use swap deliberately for memory that you know doesn’t need to be super fast. A toolbar icon for example… you map the file into swap and then allow the kernel to decide if it should be copied into RAM or not. Chances are the toolbar doesn’t change for minutes at a time or it might not even be visible on the screen at all - so even if you have several gigabytes of RAM available there’s a good chance the kernel will kick that icon out of RAM.

      And before you say “toolbar icons are tiny” - they’re not really. The tiny favicon for beehaw is 49kb as a compressed png… but to draw it quickly you might store it uncompressed in RAM. It’s 192px square and 32 bit color so 192 x 192 x 32 = 1.1MB of RAM for just one favicon. Multiply that by enough browser tabs and… Ouch. Which is why Mac software would commonly have the favicon as a png on disk, map the file into swap, and decompress the png every time it needs to be drawn (the window manager will keep a cache of the window in GPU memory anyway, so it won’t be redrawn often).

      Third, modern Macs have really fast flash memory for swap. So fast it’s hard to actually measure it, talking single digit microseconds, which means you can read several thousand files off disk in the time it takes the LCD to refresh. If an app needs to read a hundred images off swap in order to draw to the screen… the user is not going to notice. It will be just as fast as if those images were in RAM.

      Sure, we all run a few apps that are poorly written - e.g. Microsoft Teams - but that doesn’t matter if all your other software is efficient. Teams uses, what, 2GB? There will be plenty left for everything else.

      Of course, some people need more than 8GB. But Apple does sell laptops with up to 128GB of RAM for those users.

      • @narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        3
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        My 32/16 bit integer example was just that: an example where one was half the size as the other. Take 128/64 or whatever, doesn’t matter as it doesn’t work like that (which was my point).

        Software written in non-GC based languages runs on other operating systems as well.

        I used MS Teams as an example, but it’s hardly an exception when it comes to Electron/WebView/CEF apps. You have Spotify running, maybe a password manager (even 1Password uses Electron for its GUI nowadays), and don’t forget about all the web apps you have open in the browser, like maybe GMail and some Google Docs spreadsheet.

        And sure, Macs have fast flash memory, but so do PC notebooks in this price range. A 990 Pro also doesn’t set you back $400 per terabyte, but more like … $80, if even that. A fifth. Not sure where you got that they are so fast it’s hard to measure.

        There are tests out there that clearly show why 8 GB are a complete joke on a $1600 machine.

        So no, I still don’t buy it. I use a desktop Windows/Linux machine and a MacBook Pro (M1 Max) and the same workflows tend to use very similar amounts of memory (what a surprise /s).

      • @rasensprenger@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        5
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Almost all programs use both 32bit and 64bit integers, sometimes even smaller ones, if possible. Being memory efficient is critical for performance, as L1 caches are still very small.

        Garbage collection is a feature of programming languages, not an OS. Almost all native linux software is written in systems programming languages like C, Rust or C++, none of which have a garbage collector.

        Swap is used the same way on both linux and windows, but kicking toolbar items out of ram is not actually a thing. It needs to be drawn to the screen every frame, so it (or a pixel buffer for the entire toolbar) will kick around in VRAM at the very least. A transfer from disk to VRAM can take hundreds of milliseconds, which would limit you to like 5 fps, no one retransfers images like that every frame.

        Also your icon is 1.1Mbit not 1.1MB

        I have a gentoo install that uses 50MB of ram for everything including its GUI. A webbrowser will still eat up gigabytes of ram, the OS has literally no say in this.

  • AutoTL;DRB
    link
    fedilink
    English
    41 year ago

    🤖 I’m a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

    Click here to see the summary

    With the launch of Apple’s M3 MacBook Pros last month, a base 14-inch $1,599 model with an M3 chip still only gets you 8GB of unified DRAM that’s shared between the CPU, GPU, and neural network accelerator.

    In a show of Apple’s typical modesty, the tech giant’s veep of worldwide product marketing Bob Borchers has argued, in an interview with machine learning engineer and content creator Lin YilYi, that the Arm-compatible, Apple-designed M-series silicon and software stack is so memory efficient that 8GB on a Mac may equal to 16GB on a PC – so we therefore ought to be happy with it.

    With that said, macOS does make use of several tricks to optimize memory utilization, including caching as much data as it can in free RAM to avoid running to and from slower storage for stuff (there’s no point in having unused physical RAM in a machine) and compressing information in memory, all of which other operating systems, including Windows and Linux, do too in their own ways.

    Given a fast enough SSD, the degradation in performance associated with running low on RAM can be hidden to a degree, though it does come at the expense of additional wear on the NAND flash modules.

    We’d hate to say that Apple has designed its computers so that they perform stunningly in the shop for a few minutes, and work differently after a few months at home or in the office.

    His comment is also somewhat ironic in that much of the focus of YilYi’s interview with Borchers centered around the use of Apple Silicon in machine-learning development, which you don’t do in a store.


    Saved 71% of original text.

  • SamXavia
    link
    fedilink
    1071 year ago

    Even if it was like 16GB on a PC still not worth $1.6k

    • Jay
      link
      fedilink
      English
      571 year ago

      Especially when 16g is something like $50.

      • @Tak@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        451 year ago

        At consumer prices. There’s no way Apple doesn’t pay wholesale rates for memory.

        • @TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          251 year ago

          they have the memory controllers built into their processors now. So adding memory is even cheaper, it just takes the modules themselves