seems like the ‘safe’ public opinion is ‘we stand behind israel’ and the left opinion is palestinian support
i don’t live there i don’t have any particular interest or fascination with the region i don’t understand any of this pls don’t yell at me
It’s a complicated can of worms. Good luck getting a thorough, unbiased opinion from strangers on the Internet. The more you read about all the different political and religious factions involved in the Israel-Palentine conflict, the more you will find that it’s a tangled mess of alliances, political desires, religious convictions, and international proxy fights that reach back a century or more.
Image showing land ownership changes over the last century:
https://sites.psu.edu/anaouf2/files/2017/02/israel-palestine_map_19225_2469-vrwani.jpg
1967 looks the same as the prior image?
This map is great, time and space wise
Wtf! So Israel is the bad guy?
i think its worth looking further back in time too.
where it would be yellow for a thousand years, then green again? how far back do you go for authenticity? People have been fighting over this land since 3000bc. Let’s just go back 500,000 years and we can all agree it’s no one’s fucking land.
Go back 4.5 billion years and its not even land, just a seething cauldron of lava.
my man, go back 4.5b is my motto…
TFW the time traveller accidentally types 4.5b instead of 4.5m in the console
I just checked and looks like Israel and British were no different. No wonder hamas attacked as this is not one sided. This war has been brewing from a long time but at least now I got a clear picture.
This war has happened many times before, Arab states either funding or directly participating in an invasion of Israel with the goal of eliminating it.
Yeah but you can’t say that it’s “antisemitic”
It depends on who you chat to.
The Rhetoric from Hamas (militant organisation who seek Palestines liberation, also deemed a terrorist organisation by numerous countries and organisations such as the UK), who are backed by Iran is literally we will wipe Israel (jews) off the planet. After having the Nazis and other groups attempt to do that previously, there is definitely an argument that Israel are defending themselves and have the right to do so.
Would you ever feel comfortable with a neighbour who is a murderer of a member of your family even if you owned an arsenal of guns and had the police in a car watching your property?
Palestine isn’t recognised globally as a country whilst Israel is a ‘Western’ country in the middle East and the ally of many countries such as the UK and USA.
Also Palestine and Hamas are not the same thing. Its like sayingb the KKK is representative of all of the USA.
The whole situation from its inception after ww2 to now is fucked.
The conflict is a pr
This is a situation that transcends good guy/bad guy. On any side of the matter you can point to atrocities that the other side has committed, agreements and international laws that they’ve broken, things that could justify violence if you really want to justify violence.
I felt like a safe default option is treating both HAMAS terracts and israeli oppression of palestinians as bad and continuously fueling each other. One is right-in-your-face brutal, one is rather impersonal and systemic. That’s the baseline.
Then, opinions start to differ by who is historically to blame there or who can affect this problem and try to solve it (without any final solution some radicals want). Israel is claimed to be that, in both cases but by different parties. Two major schools of sofa thoughts are either free Palestine (and I hope it’s also free from, not for fucking HAMAS of all people?) or Israel handling it whatever it takes and staying as a beacon of the international influence (control?) in the Middle East. Whatever, pick your poison.
There are influxes of hell knows what in discussing this ongoing shitstorm, from infantilizing palestinians to adoring the jewish ethnostate. I feel it’s vital not to engage in deciding the future for these groups of people having a bloody conflict we don’t really understand, but to support humanitarian causes, relief for those affected, and reaching out to those who can help freeze this conflict. It’s hard to talk over exploding munition.
So. Basically this conflict goes back a long way, much longer than the current tensions and most recent history would have people believe. But both Israelis and Palestinians stem from the same original ancestors, both have claims to the land, and both are fighting what amounts to a religious war against one another spurred on by the US (on the side of the Israeli’s), and Iran (on the side of Hamas/Palestinians).
They each want to oust the other, and have increasingly done some really really war crime worthy things to one another in the name of oppression or rightful ownership and “peace negotiations”. As a result neither one is really honestly looking for a peaceful resolution and the US gets to sell weapons to Israel, and Netanyahu gets what he wants which is destabilization of the region. All at the cost of innocent civilians on both sides.
US and UK politicians have large Israel supporting populations (whether Christian evangelists, hard right nationalists (“i-rony”) or just old fashioned Zionist Jews) so they have to kiss the ring and support Israel.
Germany has a forever guilt for the Holocaust so they support Israel.
India is run by Hindu nationalists who have a psychopathic hatred of Muslims so they also support Israel.
Anyone else who has any decency or inner feeling of justice will support Palestinians for being subject to decades of occupation and apartheid and know that it’s utterly hypocritical to support Ukraine for resisting Russian aggression while condemning Palestinians for doing the same.
Anyone who has any decency or feeling of inner justice will support innocent civilians regardless of their country of origin, and will condemn terrorist acts and war crimes regardless of who commited them.
No argument there.
funny how they suddenly care about them while Palestinian civilians have brutally mistreated for decades.
this is like the teacher freaking out when the bullied kid finally fights back
True, but what often goes unreported is the massive scale at which Israel is killing Palestinians.
Check out this link for example: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Israel kills and injures roughly 20 Palestinians for each Israeli killed/injured by Palestine.
The current era of the conflict started in 2006, when the Hamas during a ceasefire stepped down from the government in favour of a less radical government to lead to a peace process. But then Israel bombed a residential building (they say by accident), killing 24 civilians including children and injuring many more.
That’s when the Hamas took back the power and restarted their attacks on Israel.
Anyone else who has any decency or inner feeling of justice will support Palestinians for being subject to decades of occupation and apartheid and know that it’s utterly hypocritical to support Ukraine for resisting Russian aggression while condemning Palestinians for doing the same.
This would sound a lot better if Hamas was not targeting civilians, which is not at all what the Ukrainian military is doing. Comparing these two is an insult to Ukraine.
I don’t remember all the details but after, I think ww2, a bunch of land was promised to Israel but that same land was also promised to Palestine. Do these two groups had a claim to the same land to call their country.
It couldn’t just be divided in half as they both claimed some areas as their religious sites and didn’t want to give that up.
Eventually it was settled and the land was divided between the two countries. But through legal loopholes and stuff Israel was able to claim some additional land.
But the end result is that there are two groups who have been at each others throats forever.
I’m not from this region or have a say in it. The facts I stated are not entirely accurate, it’s just what I could remember at the moment from some video I watched at some point.
So, if you read or hear conflicting information just go with what the other person said.
If I got something wrong please post the correction.
If you are going to tell me that something is wrong and I shouldn’t post it because it’s misinformation, then fuck off. No one else has posted anything and I’m just trying to help out based on memory. If you can do a better job explaining it do it and I’ll delete my comment.
But through legal loopholes and stuff
The “stuff” part was violent military invasion payed by the US. Zionism has been a thing since the XIX century and illegal Jewish settlements have been occurring from even way before WW1. To the point that some Zionist groups even staged refugee ships and terrorist attacks to gather diplomatic support and fight the British and Palestinians for decades (including bombing civilian houses, razing villages and murdering children). When the US gave them financial back up at the end of the first Arab-Israeli war (which they only wanted out of imperialism to use Israel as a war dog against other Arab nations), they used it to turn their paramilitary groups into an official army and invaded all of the West Bank (and half of Egypt). The whole thing is fucked up beyond belief.
The Israelis and Palestinians are fighting over the same land because they both think it’s The Holy Land. The Palestinians had laid claim to it for hundreds of years (I think) and then the state of Israel took over the same land in 1950, which of course pissed off the Palestinians. Fighting ensued. The US, which is a massive military power backed the Israelis (because we have a bunch of Jews/Israelis with very deep pockets), which pissed off the Palestinians even more.
This is a vast oversimplification of about 70 years of massacres, death, and hatred on both sides. For the past 20 years or so, Israel has been incredibly brazen in its destruction of Palestine and colonization of Palestinian lands. At the same time, Palestine is literally controlled by a terrorist organization that is not even trying to attack military targets and instead seems set on some sort of vengeance (while using Palestinian citizens as human shields). So neither are good, and both seem set on genocide. If you had to pick one, stand with Palestine but denounce Hamas.
Of course it’s a vast oversimplification, someone already wrote up an in depth post about it. Mine was a TL;DR
Well then you should work on your summarization skills bc you missed almost everything important in favor of a US centric view (lmao)
Ill give you my two cents:
Palestinians are justified in fighting Israel until that occupation is no longer considered a country, however, the Hamas are committing atrocities against civilians, leading many to refer to them as terrorists. The argument for the Hamas (not all Palestinians) is that Israel has committed atrocities against Palestinians for almost a century, while being backed by the most powerful countries in the world, and that retaliation from the Hamas is justified.
Personally, I’m happy to see anyone resisting Israel, and don’t believe any political compromise (although preferable) will cut it except the dissolution of Israel.
Best summary I’ve seen so far. I hope one day that Palestinians will be free from living under a fascist government. I just don’t think the terrorist local government is the right vessel for change. Call me naive, but I miss PLO.
The zionists played a part in the accendancy of Hamas over the PLO:
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Communists from the PLFP are active in the current struggle as the “Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades”.
My general sympathy is with the Palestinians who struggle from systemic oppression, but defo not with the atrocities committed by Hamas. How one can support and excuse the recent events is beyond me.
Just because you’re oppressed doesn’t mean you can just go out there and slaughter random people. I mean they even killed tourists, who have no role in this ethnical conflict. But I don’t think they even care…
Hamas are awful, and murdering the innocent is always vile. The problem is that both sides have an endless “but they started it!” going on. Hamas terrorists kidnapping and murdering innocent people: awful. Isreali military bombing innocent people :awful. Both sides claim to be defending themselves. Both sides are making things worse for themselves and others.
But Isreali will win by slowly murdering the Palestinians. Hamas will not win by occasionally murdering Israelis. Because the combined forces of almost all Western governments are onside with the Isreali government.
So, illegal terrorist acts are rightly called out, and funding to Palestine stopped until it can be proven the money won’t go to Hamas. But, even when the UN or indvidual countries call out Isreal for war crimes or illegal actions, they don’t stop funding their military. Per capita, Isreal spends more on its military than the USA (Israel (~$2770), United States (~$2405) with the USA providing 20% of Isreal military spending. So it’s an extremely lopsided bothsidesbad situation.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/
Too many countries/companies profit from this conflict. The economy has adapted to it & is built on it. So are the politics… There is no winner besides religious fundamentalism and capitalism.
Can’t see your image properly btw, it’s not loading. Neither on sync nor on liftoff.
Military industrial complex needs a new middle east conflict because money. This is the most concise, realistic explanation you’ll get.
The safe position is, Israel did bad things but Hamas is bad for wanting to commit genocide/attacking random festival. I think.
I said this in another thread and I will say it again here:
I always find it odd how people blame “extremists” and the Palestinians for this.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women. No one bat an eye to that.
Then extremists and hate towards Israel came and bam, they are the bad ones suddenly.
Certainly what Hamas does is entirely wrong however - People cannot expect them be silent and get killed by Israeli forces.
This is what happens from decades upon decades of oppression.
This entire conflict was created by Israel stealing land and starting a genocide mission on Palestinians.
Yes when you kill other humans intentionally you are depraved. Doesn’t matter if you are american, Israeli, Chinese, or Palestinian.
Yes you can be oppressed and wronged.
Both can be true.
But the murderous part is your own decision. It needn’t be the only one.
I am pretty sure the entire conflict started because arabs deny the right of Israel to exist tho
Nope.
Before WW1 the area was inhabited by Arabs and controlled by the Ottomans.
During WW1, the Brits promised the Arabs an independent state of Palestine, if they revolt against the Ottomans and kick them out, which they did.
The Brits, being Brits, did what Brits do and kept control over that area, now called Mandatory Palestine, and wanted to keep controlling that area “until such time as they are able to stand alone”.
So this area was very much promised to the people who lived there for centuries.
At the same time, Zionist Jews wanted their own national state, and antisemites in Europe wanted the same, as long as that meant that the Jews where far away from Europe. So this unlikely alliance between Jews and Antisemites first looked at moving the Jews to Uganda, which was also controlled by the Brits. That plan fell through, and instead they promised them modern-day Israel. Of course without asking the natives who they promised the area too.
So lots of Jews moved there, which the natives didn’t like. Both sides mounted a bigger insurrection, until the UN, again without asking the natives, decided to split up the area between Jews and Palestinians.
The local arab population, aided by Jordan and Egypt, started a war, that Israel won. Israel then annexed a lot of land, that, according to the UN plan was promised to the Palestinians and since then they occupied the areas and ruled with an iron fist there. For each Israeli killed, they kill 20 Palestinians. Palestinians are not allowed to leave the area and Israel randomly turns off water, electricity and food supplies, whenever they feel like it.
Claiming “it’s just because Arabs don’t like Israel” is pretty one-sided.
What happened there is pretty much every right-extremist-conspiracy-theorist’s fever nightmare. A huge amount of foreign settlers immigrating, taking away land and supressing the local population. But instead of this being conspiracy nonsense that right-wing extremists spew to cause fear, it really happened there. And it was even much worse than the right-wing fear phantasies.
I agree with almost everything you said, except the first paragraph. Jews were living in that area for thousands of years, it’s not like they been dropped to a completely new territory.
So they did have historic ties with that land
Yes, there was a tiny minority of Jews in the area during Ottoman rule. But it was fewer people than Christians there. And almost all of the Jews that moved there to found Israel had no connection to the land at all.
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That’s okay! Wishing is a good thing. However I’m glad blocking exists on Lemmy.
EDIT: Would like to add on this, that it is kind of sad and unfortunate that you do not have a counter argument or even at least a valid one and thus you have to resort to such a thing.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women.
Can I get a source for this? I’ve been living under a rock.
Israel killing children in 2022: https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2022-becomes-deadliest-year-palestinian-children-west-bank-over-15-years-save-children Israel taken over houses: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says
There was a few years ago before Pandemic about a Palestinian guy getting arrested for talking to an journalist regards his house been taken over by Israeli people. I will try to find that one as well. It was big on the news (at least in my country back then).
Thanks for the input. I haven’t been following this story closely.
why were they having a music festival next to a concentration camp?
No idea, but what I do know is that it’s not a justification for murdering them.
lol there is literally zero proof of this.
all sources are directly from the IDF.
news sites are already retracting their stories of it.
did you also believe the lie that babies were pulled out of incubators to drag us into the Iraq war?
Zero proof? Except the actual videos, you mean?
BBC, CNN, ABC, etc aren’t retracting articles. Seems like you’re just making shit up
where is the proof?
Sorry bud, that’s cute, but you don’t get to where’s the proof me after literally making shit up. You want the proof? Try your fucking eyes. You sound like a holocaust denier.
https://news.yahoo.com/idf-says-wont-back-claim-150213726.html
hmmmmmm
and you sound like a TV race American that can be manipulated by the slightest bit of propaganda into supporting anything
They attacked and defeated a huge number of military targets as well, which has been heavily downplayed in the Western News media I’ve seen.
Israel is bad for committing genocide.
Palestinians are apparently bad for not wanting to be genocided.
Close.
Israel was and is bad for committing genocide.
Hamas is bad for doing a terrorism
Palestinians are apparently bad because the government the majority of them didn’t vote for is bad.
The true victims of this war, as always, are the civilians
Hamas is a bad palestinian group.
But palastine minus hamas really holds no fault. Israel is the antagonist between the two nations.
Hamas just just a terrorist response to that. And while terrorism is always bad, israel did actively cultivate that terror group.
Palestinians have a UN recognized right to armed struggle. How do you recommend they carry that out?
Do you mean palestinians in general? Or do you specifically mean hamas?
Cause the answer is different depending.
How do you recommend that Palestinians engage in armed struggle?
Probably by fighting actual soldiers, not bombing civilians and kidnapping children.
Do you recognize the bombing of Hiroshima as a war crime?
Without raping and murdering civilians, to start? Fuck Israel, but that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys.
Is there a war that you think was fought justly?
So, specifically palestinians in general?
I think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal. Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal.
The current engagement is largely guerilla tactics against military installations.
Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
This is not armed struggle. The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle.
Huh, interesting take. I guess Israel minus the settler hardliners is as unfaulty.
Meh… Israel helped make Hamas big, way before they were known as Hamas. Back then they just were an offshoot of the egyptian Muslim Brotherhood organisation. Fatah was/is secular and Israel sought to utilize islamist organizations agaibst Fatah, who they saw as their main opponent. And it worked. There was violence between secular and islamist palestinian organisations.
But -shock horror- the islamists turned out to be a greater threat to israel than the secular fatah.
It’s a little like 9/11. I vehemently disavow and condemn the attacks. But on the other hand, you kinda made your own bed so to speak.
They both deserve to be nuked ☢️
There’s an old saying in the internet that I didn’t hear for a long time: Remember the human.
Thanks for your insightful and well-thought-out comment -_-
It’s not as complicated as portrayed. Everyone has some kind of point. But the people controlling the attacks are pretty much assholes, and the citizens getting killed are innocent victims
Exactly, Israeli and Palestinian civilians are the victims.
This short documentary that David Hoffman uploaded sums the history up in an impartial manner.
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