I want the title of “Batman researcher”
Dark Knight Detective
World’s Greatest Detective Detective.
Curator of Caped Crusader curiosities
If he’s the best, then he’s the World’s Greatest World’s Greatest Detective Detective.
Imagine how difficult it is to try to tell people that you are, globally, the pre-eminent batman researcher…
Feels like they’re Robin you by not granting it.
You’re quite the joker, aren’t you?
These policies are riddled with discrimination and hypocrisy. These extremists need two face reality and put a freeze on them.
Penguin
Penwing
Head of the Batman Research Institute at the Harvard School of Comics.
He was the researcher they needed but not the researcher they deserved.
I am the night… researcher.
was he talking about robin
The was talking about robbin’
Why was someone from Batman, Turkey even teaching these kids?
Or Batman, Australia (suburb of Melbourne)
Batman researcher?
Yet another thing I’ll never understand about cricket ffs
My man still trying to find out who this mysterious caped crusader is.
…batman researcher?
Comic Book Historian would have been a better title. I thought “batman” might have been referring to an unrelated school or something.
AKA: World’s Greatest Researcher.
This is a weird headline. Ok the guy really is a Batman researcher. I’m not sure why it was so important to mention that the Batman co-creator’s son was gay though, unless that was somehow relevant to the creation process or his life experience or something.
Since nobody read the damn thing: it was a key talking point
Finger’s only child was a son, Fred Finger, who was gay and died in 1992 at age 43 of AIDS complications. Bill Finger was presumed to have no living heirs, meaning there was no one to press DC Comics to acknowledge Finger’s work. But Nobleman discovered Fred Finger had a daughter, Athena Finger. That, he said, is a showcase moment of the presentation he estimates he has given 1,000 times at schools. “It’s the biggest twist of the story, and it’s usually when I get the most gasps,” Nobleman said. “It’s just a totally record-scratch moment.”
Ok so they didn’t think the son had an heir but he actually did, I still am not sure that the son’s sexual orientation is that important in a story about Batman to elementary school kids.
It’s not a story about Batman. It’s a story about the creation of Batman. That’s why it’s important.
And about DC being arses, and Finger’s gay son having against all expectations a daughter being the only reason said arses eventually recognised him as co-creator.
The only reason someone would get offended at the mere mention of gay people existing to elementary school kids is that they don’t want gay people to exist. Take a look at yourself and ask why this upsets you.
The same reason famous women inventors and inventors of color are often singled out to us in gradeschool.
Because history was written almost exclusively by (or at least authored by if they had others write it) heterosexual Caucasian men who largely wrote themselves as the victors of every war, inventor of anything they could take credit for, etc.
A child in that biased vacuum might come to the incorrect conclusion that straight Caucasian men are the best and the brightest rather than the truth: that they’re merely the writers of their own historical press releases.
Gay people have invented, authored, and created for all of human history, largely under the guise of being straight lest they be shunned and cast out of halls of power.
That’s why it’s important to demonstrate to children that creation comes from people who look like and have similar identities to themselves. Imagine being a 13 year old realizing you’re gay and remembering that civilization was created largely by straight people who largely also chose to make gay people’s lives living hells, if they let them live at all.
yea, though many cultures around the world don’t place a high emphasis on these kind of values
Wtf. There was no gay invention of Batman.
The point is the co-creator only had one son who was gay and had died in the 90s, so has no living heir to fight for his recognition. By surprise twist, his gay son had a daughter! That’s the whole thing. That’s why it’s interesting.
Oh god, the humanity, the children!!
Yes. I am well aware of the Finger family and have been a long supporter of getting his name on the comics.
The above comment directly links the creation of the character to a son who had nothing to do with the creation.
Gay people have invented, authored, and created for all of human history, largely under the guise of being straight lest they be shunned and cast out of halls of power.
No the persons comment was very much lumping the creation of Batman under this. Like, yes, the story is cool and very surprising given the circumstances. But that isn’t what the person you’re replying to is taking issue with.
What would this be called, gay-washing? I don’t know, I also don’t really care. I’m just pointing out what I see.
Why are straight white people the only people who don’t need a plot justification to exist?
Non-straight here: It would be just as weird to mention heterosexual people being straight when it’s irrelevant to the conversation, IMO. If you’re making a point to mention the person’s sexuality, there should be a reason for it.
In this case, it did have that. He was known to be gay, but turned out to have a daughter that no one knew about.
But we absolutely see backlash of the type of “why does he have to be gay” in response to something as simple as two men holding hands, or other things that would never be seen as “making a point to mention someone’s sexuality” if that sexuality is straight. I’m generalizing away from this particular example and addressing the idea that anything that isn’t cishet is abnormal and requires justification.
They’re agreeing with you by saying that no one’s sexuality should be forced to be disclosed, much less should it require justification unless absolutely necessary.
This isn’t about forcing people to disclose their sexuality. “Why does he have to be gay?” Is almost always an effort to force people not to disclose their sexuality, but it’s only ever used when the sexuality being disclosed is non-straight. You have never seen and will never see any reaction at all to a straight cis male character simply using the phrase “my wife” but a cis female character doing exactly the same will elicit a backlash. They’ll dress it up as being against unnecessary sexualization, but the only sexualization that’s ever unnecessary is queer sexualization. Straight sexualization is never a problem.
It’s important from a narrative standpoint in telling his own story of researching this; the point of these talks is much less about teaching kids the history of the co-creator of Batman than it is telling the story of the researcher and writer who put that history together. The point is to hopefully inspire a few kids to go down a similar path themselves.
It was presumed, since Bill Finger’s only child was a gay man who died thirty years ago, that no heir to his estate existed. The researcher discovering that Bill had a granddaughter would lose its impact without the knowledge that his only child was gay.
Finger died in obscurity in 1974, with artist Bob Kane credited as Batman’s only creator. Finger’s only child was a son, Fred Finger, who was gay and died in 1992 at age 43 of AIDS complications. Bill Finger was presumed to have no living heirs, meaning there was no one to press DC Comics to acknowledge Finger’s work.
But Nobleman discovered Fred Finger had a daughter, Athena Finger. That, he said, is a showcase moment of the presentation he estimates he has given 1,000 times at schools.
“It’s the biggest twist of the story, and it’s usually when I get the most gasps,” Nobleman said. “It’s just a totally record-scratch moment.”
Nobleman’s research helped push DC Comics into reaching a deal with Athena Finger in 2015 to acknowledge her grandfather and Kane as co-creators. That led to the documentary “Batman & Bill,” featuring Nobleman.
Yeah it’s a vital component of the story, and any pushback reaks of ‘dont say gay’.
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I think the question is why/how the sexual orientation is relevant. The same as skin color etc, that seems irrelevant to me.
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Only white, heteronormative, neurotypical experiences influence the creation of artistic works. Duh. /s
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Don’t forget Christian!
Oh, but that’s not even specific enough? On which half of 30 schisms does your religion fall vs someone else’s? Oh? 2 schisms off? Time for a crusade I guess!
In America, race and sexuality being irrelevant is a privilege of straight white men. When someone has done you violence because of who you are, you’ll spend every second of the rest of your life with who you are and how likely the people around you are to try to kill you over it in the forefront of your mind. When I, as a queer person, walk into a room I immediately sort everyone in the room into threats, allies, and people who will just stand off to the side because experience has taught me that if I don’t some people will beat the shit out of me and others will tell me that I deserve it for “being a f*g about things”. Ask your black friend, or your gay friend, or your woman friend. I guarantee you every one of them is more on guard than you because race, gender and sexual orientation will never be irrelevant to them.
That’s fucking terrible. And another reason not to make something like that public, when it is that prone to be used against that person.
The last time I was bullied and attacked was back in school. Kids don’t need any reason to be hostile, it could be the angle of your eyebrow.
In this specific case what makes the discovery of a grandaughter of the author a massive surprise and plot twist is that her father and only child of the author was gay. Had he not been so, expectations on the existance of a living descendant of the author might have been different.
That’s what makes his sexual orientation be relevant in this case: it explains why nobody expected there would be living descendants of the author and why her discovery was such a massive plot twist.
Had her father been, for example, a catolic priest (quite independently of sexual orientation), that information would’ve been relevant in just the same way and for the same reasons.
Whilst I agree that people’s sexual orientation is irrelevant in most stories that aren’t about romance (and no matter which way it goes, by the way), in this specific case it absolutelly is relevant to explain the behaviour and expectations of other participants in the story up to the point when the grandaughter was discovered.
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I’m culturally very dutch, having lived there for almost a decade at a key point of my life, so from my point of view all sexual orientations are absolutelly normal, same as, for example, eye color - only wierdos would ever treat people differently based on eye color, sexual orientation or any such things.
From my point of view the continued emphasising of the differences but with a different “tone” that some in anglo-saxon cultures think of as “progressive” is actually culturally backwards, as for me the ideal world is one were people don’t get classified, put in little boxes and judged and treated differently on things they were born with.
So yeah, when all sexual orientations are normal there is about as much need to point them out when not relevant as there is a need to point out the color of the eyes of somebody when not relevant. Equally, there is no reason whatsoever to refrain from mentioning it when they are relevant: you don’t act differently around and about a specific normal something than you would around and about all other normal things - if you do then that is clearly not normal for you.
I can understand that from your cultural environment the visible reflections of my own “only wierdoes emphasise absolutelly normal things” posture might be confused with the kind of thinly disguised “anti-gay” sentiment the types who in your own culture are seen as backwards put out, as you’re still in an environment were the fight for equality is done by keeping on classifying people on things they were born with and emphasising whenever you can in a positive way certain classifications to make up for past (and also still very much present from other people in your culture) negative sentiment against them, hence it’s only natural to from that worldview perceive those who disagree with such positive emphasising as anti-gay (because in your mind you assume that everybody is doing the classifying part, so those who refuse to recognize certain classifications positivelly must be “anti” them) and the unfortunate widespread belief in the Two-side Falacy in your culture doesn’t exactly help with even considering the possibility that there are more takes on such an important subject as Equality that just the 2 you’ve been led to believe are the only ones possible.
(Still, I was hoping that my logical argumentation approach on my original post hinted at were I was coming from, but I guess it didn’t for everybody)
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I suggest you review the Logic of the concept that other people not celebrating every single thing associated with somebody else’s “experiences” when talking about something else and were those are totally irrelevant, somehow cheapens such “experiences”, unless you think that only some very specifical innate characteristics associated with “experiences” deserve reafirmation and celebration at every moment including when not applicable, but not other innate characteristics, in which case you’ve proven my point about not treating all normal things as normal.
(For example, just because I have blue eyes and I’ve had experiences thanks to that doesn’t mean other people should be going around talking about blue-eyed people and expecting ptherwise would be very very wierd of me)
What an incredibly narcissitic and moralistic take on the world to expect others to constantly celebrate very specific chracteristics you were born with that lead to very specific experiences you find important for yourself - you, your characteristics and your experiences are not inherently important and deserving of constant recognition by everybody else just to prevent you from feeling that they’re being cheapenned.
Mind you, such a “I see only me and what’s important for me must be treated as important by all” is also a common cultural artifact in the modern anglo world so it makes sense to see that “logic” used as an “argument” by pretty much everybody in the cultural wars over there (even nationalists and religious nutters anchor their “logic” on "“what’s important for me should be treated as important by all”).
This is about as well formulated as it gets, thank you. I think the same way.
I just came all the way back and you seemed to be accusing me of something I did not say (or meant to imply).
Eventually all the way down our little tète-à-tète you’ll see I’m explicitly saying that it makes all sense to mention an artists sexual orientation when that is part of what makes the art she or he makes be what it is.
(However in that thread you seem to be defending unprompted celebration of specific human characteristics because they have contributed to making the art of some people what it is, and that’s WAY broader than recognizing them for their specific contribution in specific artist, artworks and art styles).
As for artistic works themselves, everything and nothing are relevant and irrelevant: it’s all up to the artist what should go there.
However in this specific case somebody was telling a true story (so, not a work of art) and what was being disputed was if mentioning a specific person’s sexual orientation made sense or not here, which IMHO does make all sense (it’s actually quit crucial).
Telling a true story is all about conveying information, in which case relevance does make sense as a criteria in including or not something.
Straight people often (don’t) have children. Assuming that it must be this or that, forever, is absurd.
I’d like to compare that percentage to the amount of gay men that have children without adoption. Something tells me that all the butt fucking I do isn’t gonna lead me to have a child accidentally. But maybe I’ve been having gay sex all wrong.
It’s about the expectations about the likelihood of having descendants that the knowledge that the man was gay create in everybody else, especially was this was quite some time ago.
(People naturally assume that gay men are far less likely to have children than straight men, for obvious reasons which I assume I do not need to explain to you)
Such expectations then fed into expectations about the future of the DC Universe.
All this makes the discovery that people were wrong in their expectations a pivotal and thus key element in the whole story.
I’ll make it easier for you: imagine that the man was a catolic priest rather than gay, and then imagine that the story teller would have to try and work the story around not mentioning that piece of information because some people felt that there should be no mention of “catolicism”. Think just how senseless the story would be without it (most of it would make no sense for the audience because they wouldn’t understand people’s expectation that he had no childen).
If it would make no sense for the story-teller to refrain from mentioning a specific christian denomination when it was key to the story, why would it make sense for the story-teller to refrain from mentioning a specific sexual orientation which is key to the story?!
For that specific reason… alright. Makes sense to mention it. Sadly, often it is not mentioned for such a reason. Which is what made me comment here, even tho in this case, it actually does make sense. Sorry for the confusion.
His son would’ve been his only heir eligible to receive compensation if DC ever made things right, but he died young (from AIDS) and never had any children himself (because he was gay).
Edif: He did have a child! Wow!
Wow!
And this reaction is precisely the reason why the son being gay is a key point of the talk (it’s the twist of the story, and Finger’s gay son having a daughter who could demand restitution was the only reason DC eventually recognised him as co-creator!), and why removing that fact from the talk wouldn’t just be homophobic, but also profoundly stupid (not that being homophobic isn’t profoundly stupid already, of course, but this makes it stupidity squared).
The world is way more tribalistic than most people realize.
You say or do anything that goes against the tribe you’re in, you’re going to have a bad time.
I think you have it backwards. People realize tribalism so intrinsically it doesn’t even register.
The beauty of the social justice push we’ve seen from the 70s to today is that it actively tries to counteract the human tribal instinct to create a more fair and inclusive world. Granted, I’m not sure how successful it’s been at removing tribalism… it just seems to have redefined the tribes.
Yes, I’m referring to the school or community as the tribe.
Even if they’re wrong, since there’s more of them than you, they’re right.
They can be so right that they all collectively drink poisoned Kool-Aid.
Tribal behavior is simultaneously humankind’s greatest strength and its greatest threat.
That’s pretty much all it is or has ever been. I’m fine with it though. We are what we are.
I’m just happy to be here to play a little music and video games.
My tribe’s music of course. My tribe makes the best music. Of course I feel that way.
I have a lot of questions about different parts of this title that I don’t understand, but I support him.
Marc Tyler Nobleman was supposed to talk to kids about the secret co-creator of Batman, with the aim of inspiring young students in suburban Atlanta’s Forsyth County to research and write.
Then the school district told him he had to cut a key point from his presentation — that the artist he helped rescue from obscurity had a gay son. Rather than acquiesce, he canceled the last of his talks.
First of all thank you for saving a click. Secondly, Marc Tyler Nobleman is not just a Batman researcher, he is a symbol. What an absolute Chad.
Would he have said the artist had a ‘straight’ son? Or is it just a son in that case?
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I don’t think you know what that means.
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You misunderstand.
I’m highlighting how the son’s sexual orientation would likely not be brought up if he was straight, unless it was relevant to the story at hand.
Mentioning someone is gay just because they’re gay is focusing on their sexual orientation for no good reason, just pointing out that they’re ‘different’ and need to be acknowledge as such.
Are your panties in a bunch?
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Lol, what?
Are yours?
Then the school district told him he had to cut a key point from his presentation — that the artist he helped rescue from obscurity had a gay son. Rather than acquiesce, he canceled the last of his talks.
“We’re long past the point where we should be policing people talking about who they love,” Nobleman said in a telephone interview. “And that’s what I’m hoping will happen in this community.”
They didn’t ask him not to “say ‘gay’”, as the title all but claims. They asked him to participate in the erasure of a relevant gay person from a story he was teaching to children.
I dunno, would he mention the artist had a straight son? Or is it just a son in that case?
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What are you talking about?
Was this guy hanged?
This is the second reply you’ve made that doesn’t make any sense, lol.
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Or just explain your case better? It seems you’re the one who doesn’t understand what I’m saying, based on your other reply.
Lol. Not sure why you’re calling me a ‘dog.’ Let’s leave the personal attacks at home, eh?
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OP is making a point that the visibility of queer and other minorities in history and in public is more important than the visibility of straight/non-minority people. Their point was that non-minority groups aren’t hated and target for who they are unlike minority groups. It is important to display and teach about the humanity of different groups in order to prevent mistrust and violence against them by the majorities.
If you really didn’t understand this then you should get your head out of your ass and wake up to reality.
Calm down, no need to resort to personal insults. Rule #1: Be civil.
It seems the guy you’re talking about doesn’t understand my point. Here’s my other post on the matter that can explain it better for you if you’re also having difficulty: https://unilem.org/comment/1447121
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Right.
Gonna have to block you now. You don’t seem to understand what’s going on.
homophobes asking for civility always makes me laugh. You first!
Wait, was it a relevant person?
It’s the son of the artist, right? Did the son have anything to do with Batman? Did the son’s sexual orientation have anything to do with Batman?
What else is relevant about the son? Was he an artist? A writer? What did he do for a living? Did he have any relevant health disorders? Food preferences? Did he have any children?
BROADLY SPEAKING, your sexual preferences are the least interesting or relevant things in any conversation, unless we’re considering dating each other.
I don’t know the history of Batman so maybe it’s actually relevant, but my gut says it’s just not.
What’s your gender identity and sexual orientation?
I identify as tired.
Oh man, I’ve never thought to identify that way. But that’s a good one.
100% stolen from Nanette, a great comedy special/activisty rant by Hannah Gadsby.
Worth a watch even if she’s not your cup of tea.
Oh, I remember that. She was pretty great. Gotta see if she has anything new
who gives aa shit. telling people what words they can and connote say is the censorship in the extreme.
I don’t disagree with you at all.
I was responding to someone claiming they were deleting a relevant gay person from history - I was challenging the “relevant” part, that’s all.
I personally couldn’t care less what this guy put in his presentation.
cannot. for some reason my screen dims when i try to post. won’t post again. for now.
My policy has always been that I don’t care what you do in your own bedroom unless I’m involved in it, that is. Mainly, I just mean I don’t care to know everyone’s orientation. It’s not something I find relevant in most situations.
Yep, that’s my attitude too. Apparently it’s unpopular.
The son’s name is Bruce, his husband’s name is Wayne.
Holy crap I’ve never been so amazed. Yup, 100% relevant.
The son’s name was Fred Finger, and he died unmarried in his 40’s due to complications from AIDS.
The guy above was joking.
Well it was a good joke.
And that sucks. Fuck AIDS.
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I imagine that many religion/mythology researchers felt that burn.
If you’re curious as to why the title is like that, it should have prompted you to read the article as to why.
Nah. Not worth my time, lol.
Imagine caring about everything you see on the internet.
Not worth my time
Has numerous comments in this thread, weeping like a toddler because gay people exist
Lol
Lol. Do you think you were being clever?
It’d still be a waste of my time to read the article.
Sorry that’s too much for you to understand.
Waste of time
Engages further
Lol
still doesn’t understand
Alright, troll. Back under the bridge with you (blocked.)
Oh no… The homophobic troll has called me a troll and blocked me. Whatever shall I do…
Blocked
Batman researcher
So a comic book enthusiast? Is this dude the real life Comic Book Guy?
“Worst. School talk. Ever.”
This is such bullshit.
