Where is the off ramp here? Despite billions and constant propaganda Russia is not going to lose this war on the battlefield.
How much money and how many people are we going to just send to their deaths just because prolonging the conflict weakens an adversary to US.
It’s really sad :(
Why won’t Russia stop the war?
Why did Vladimir Putin claim that Ukraine isn’t a country?
Why does Russia purchase Iranian suicide drones, and launch drone and cruise missile attacks on Ukrainian cities every week?
Why do Russians want to kill all Ukrainians when they were considered brothers 2 years ago?
Oddly enough the US makes it back in many ways as it’s being fulfilled by US military contractors. So it’s not as much of a loss financially as it seems. It’s also geopolitically a good cause as bolstering support in Europe has netted a ton of contracts Russia was fulfilling for gas and coal. Ukraine is also a US ally and likely future member of both the EU and NATO, so it makes sense to support them when invaded for absolutely no rhyme or reason by pretty much the most consistent adversary of the US throughout modern history. But I’m sure whatever you said makes sense too.
I agree it has helped the us economy. Wow we are the real heroes here… Europe now turns to us for gas/energy … military contracts getting filled… ohh who cares about the actual Ukrainians dying at least they are not US citizens …
Honestly disgusting
So you’d just abandon them to Russian imperialism? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against that.
Ukraine was fighting the invasion before the West started sending them guns anyway. Ukraine is choosing to fight whether it has support or not.
You want to abandon the people in Ukraine to fuckers with SS Totenkopf patches on their uniform? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against.
There are tons of Russian Nazis, don’t kid yourself.
“Second, the Kremlin launched “managed nationalism”, an attempt to co-opt and mobilise radical nationalist militants, including neo-Nazis, as a counterweight to an emerging anti-Putin coalition of democrats and leftist radicals.”
I’m sorry, who is actually running Ukraine? Is it the Azov lot and their like?
One of the two sides of this war has warmongering ultranationalists in government. It’s not Ukraine.
Zelenskiy just a couple of weeks ago did a photo op with Azov fighters. The Ukrainian government gives money and arms and propaganda support to Neo-Nazis. No other government does that. Even Russian Neo-Nazis are fighting for Ukraine. Yes the Ukrainian government is ethnonationalist.
Zelenskiy:
There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine. But I think that when we name so many streets, bridges by the same name, this is not quite right.
Such a brave push back on the Nazis. He has a point. Naming every street and bridge after Bandera is going to be confusing, I’m sure the Nazis will agree.
If your proposed plan for dealing with the likes of Azov is “let Putin’s Russia win” then you do not actually have a problem with the far right being in power in Ukraine, you just have a preference in your flavour of far right. Frankly if I were in Zelenskiy’s position and a fascist told me he wanted to go die to defend democracy from other fascists, I’m not about to discourage him, I’m gonna chalk it up as a win-win
I am assuming you are an American, so I think you have sent no one.
Pretty much. All US veterans who have died in Ukraine were volunteers. Just about everything we’ve given Ukraine is old military equipment we don’t need, and it accounts for such a small amount in the total budget while absolutely fucking the greatest threat to Europe at the moment. It might be the best ROI we’ve ever gotten from anything ever.
This is coming from someone who is extremely anti-war, but that doesn’t make me anti-defend yourself.
The original commenter is probably a troll or an idiot whose idea of peace is to put down your own weapon and raise your ass in the air and await the invader to come and fuck it.
Peace with Russia is not possible. The world attempted peace with Russia in 2014 after Russia said they would not invade more of Ukraine after Crimea, now the “peace advocates” want Ukraine to give up 1/3 of their country to appease Russia and “stop” the war. At this rate Eastern Europe will be part of Russia within a few short decades.
The war is not over until every millimeter has been retaken and Russia is pushed out.
The United States also gave tens of billions of dollars worth of aid following the collapse of the Soviet Union to Russia. We paid to have all of their nuclear material secured, including providing security detail at all of their nuclear sites. And this is how they repay us.
Greatest threat to Europe is the european union and it’s politicians
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We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
If Russia doesn’t lose on the battlefield, Putin will invade Poland next, and then one of the following happens:
- NATO responds. Nukes fly. Game over.
- NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
Putin is Hitler with nukes. He’s trying to start World War 3. We’re trying to stop him before the conflict spirals out of control. If we fail, everybody dies.
We’re not supporting Ukraine out of the goodness of our hearts. We’re doing it to save our own asses.
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
Mask off moment. Ukrainians aren’t even people to you. Most of them are conscripts forced to be on the front line.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself. There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash. Baltics pretty much have the same attitude but are smaller so they’d simply follow Poland. Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Now the US in its usual exceptionalism might be blissfully unaware of those dynamics, and the Kremlin because the FSB reports what the Kremlin wants to hear, but it’s true nontheless. But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in. Reluctantly and in a limited fashion, probably, just as they’re reluctant now. Germany has pretty much stopped trying to bully the US into providing more things because we’ve reached the limits of what the US will do (that is, Germany could pressure the US to deliver Abrams by tying Leos to the US also delivering tanks, but providing Taurus cruise missiles won’t be tied to ATACMS because apparently that’s a US red line).
Since the EU doesn’t have a standing army, they cannot respond. Without NATO, Putin can drive straight to the Atlantic and there’s not a goddamn thing Europeans can do about it.
NATO doesn’t have a standing army. Like the EU, it has member states. EU joint Command and Control is rather lacking but if you think that means that the EU won’t respond even though it is a defensive alliance you’re delirious.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself.
Them and what army? The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin without launching any nukes are the US and China, and China is on Putin’s side.
There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Last I heard, Finland and Sweden had been taken over by Nazis, and Germany was in the middle of being taken over by Nazis. I’d expect them to welcome Putin’s invasion with open arms. France is too busy fighting itself to fight anyone else.
But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in.
At which point we’re back to square one. The reason we’re having this discussion is because, in the opinion of @Roody15@reddthat.com, it is “very sad” that the US isn’t going to sit back and let Putin start World War 3.
The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin
…include Ukraine being drip-fed western surplus. France alone would roll over Russia, the Poles aren’t as strong but they’re fucking nuts determined because history.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Then you don’t know any Poles. You know it’s one of those Eastern European countries where the first line of the national anthem goes “Our country isn’t lost yet”, referring to centuries upon centuries of Russian imperialism. As the joke goes:
Two Polish veterans meet at a bar. Asks one: “Wawrek, if tomorrow both the Germans and the Russians invade, who do we shoot at first?”, replies the other: “Oh that’s an easy one. The Germans: Business before pleasure”.
That sure isn’t how it went last time Poland got invaded. Their country was lost until the Allies liberated them. Same with France.
Determination does not equal manpower or firepower. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine right now; they’d have been defeated already. That’s why we’re sending Ukraine war supplies.
The polish army isn’t using cavalry any more. And France has nukes this time around and just for the record: France’s half-surrender was the strategically optimal move in their position.
If anyone launches nukes, our whole species dies. We’re trying to prevent that outcome.
We were in Iraq for 20 years despite it being so unpopular and illegal
The off ramp is whenever the defense contractors start losing money and it’s not profitable anymore
Lol so never. They have a vested interest in keeping this a stalemate as long as possible. My tinfoil hat theory is the only reason Ukraine is barred from using weapons in Russia is that the US military industrial complex would love to see this drawn out for as long as possible. Every aid package is a boon to their stock price.
Russia will lose any day now. Their army has been routed and they’re constantly fleeing the lines. Hundreds of thousands of Russians are dead or zero-summed while Ukraine has no casualties. Ukraine is marching towards Moscow and this war will end with
PutinPutler shooting himself in the head! Slava Ukraini!Inb4 anyone calls me a tankie for supporting Biden sending tanks to Ukraine.
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(Sorry. I can’t resist the urge to post Simpsons references)
Ya know there’s a country called Ukraine that’s involved in this, right? They are people defending their country and they’re going to do that with or without US support. And Ukraine will win in the end. Russia doesn’t have enough to successfully occupy Ukraine against an organized resistance which is where things could go without military aid from the west.
While a resistance would ultimately be successful, it would take a decade or more. And it’s likely a Russian occupation of Ukraine would involve genocide. Do you want that?
Sending military aid isn’t about trying to change the outcome of the war. Russia’s defeat is inevitable. The military aid is about helping Ukraine defeat Russia sooner, without the need for a prolonged resistance campaign, and that reduces the loss of life.
When you say that Ukraine will defeat Russia do you mean Ukraine will occupy the Donbass and impose a government on them that those people don’t want?
You do know that there’s a region called Donbass that is involved in this right? And they’ve been fighting for their lives since 2014. Why don’t you care about those people?
It seems unlikely that the people of Donbass do want to be a part of Russia now that they’ve had a taste of occupation.
Being conscripted, given third rate equipment or no equipment at all and being send to die is not generally an endearing act.
Good thing they have you to tell them their opinion, oh white saviour.
They spent 8 years being shelled by Ukraine prior to that
You don’t get to instigate a rebellion using your own intelligence and military assets, and then invade your neighbor and claim that you never did, that’s just bullshit.
This entire conflict was instigated by Russia.
It’s very hard to invent a movement in another country. Were they backed by Russia from the outset? Obviously, but they had real reasons to be upset with what the new administration was doing. This is a little like dismissing the people who disagree with you as bots, it lets you avoid needing to consider that some people might have good reason for opposing your favored side.
Yes, absolutely it was. There have been many books and publications featuring interviews and even video footage of Russian soldiers from the outset of the war. Here’s an interview:
And Russia seized crimea right afterwards. Coincidence? Nope.
And let’s not forget how they"separatists" somehow were operating Russian military air defense systems.
Igor Girkin was found responsible for shooting down MH17 by a Dutch cour.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63637625
… But he was a Russian commander who controlled the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic armed forces.
Russian authorities on Friday detained Igor Girkin, a former Russian commander in Ukraine and prominent war blogger, reportedly on charges of promoting extremism — marking the first time Moscow has taken action against a fervent supporter of the war in Ukraine but one who voiced loud criticism of Russian leaders and their often botched military strategy.
“Girkin, who is also known by his nom de guerre Igor Strelkov, is an ex-officer of the Federal Security Service, or FSB. He played a role in Russia’s invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014 and then served as a commander in Russian-controlled areas of Donbas in eastern Ukraine, where he helped foment a separatist war and was accused of extrajudicial killings.”
Russia used their guys to instigate a rebellion. If you think all rebellions are free from outside influences, you are sorely mistaken and shows complete naivete regarding the current conflict.
Being conscripted, given third rate equipment or no equipment at all and being send to die is not generally an endearing act.
This is what Ukraine’s coup government has been doing for over a year at this point.
Brb printing 40 bil without taxing profits
aid is good, but we need to stop dancing around and allow provided arms to be used cross border. or maybe itll take the deaths of another 250000 russian conscripts
Aid ukraine people not ukraine government.
Unironically the most logical comment here. Aid to Ukraine is good, but we need to commit and go balls deep. No silly half-measure, attack russia where it hurts, especially those annoying-ass bombers and missile/drone factories.
What are you an Army general? I kinda would prefer the government not give any more reason for a nuclear strike by Russia. Which is absolutely where we’re trending if America starts dropping pretenses and begins directly arming incursions into Russian borders.
Russia only understands one language: violence.
They need to be shown where their place is, and NATO’s combined might is more than capable of doing so. Hell, Ukraine with NATO’s leftovers is keeping russia at bay.
If russia wants to go nuclear, so be it. They’ll be absolutely eradicated, so they won’t strike first.
Name on state or nation in the world that isn’t rooted in violence and that doesn’t have an army
Okay armchair army general, I guess we’re going to nuclear war against a country on another continent that we’ve not technically declared war with because of your expert geopolitical analyst.
They need to be shown where their place is
You Americans talk like school bullies lmao.
You Americans talk like school bullies lmao.
As opposed to Russians, who act like school bullies.
who act like school bullies.
Which country has been invading more places? 🤔
Don’t know, and your question is whataboutism.
Russia invades its neighbors and acts surprised when other neighbors want to join NATO!
If Russia doesn’t want other countries to swing to the west, then all it has to do is stop behaving badly. Easy.
Just for interests sake, here’s a map of all the countries that Russia has invaded. It’s pretty telling really.
If russia wants to go nuclear, so be it.
Geez, NATO libs have really gone all in on nuclear armageddon won’t be all that bad actually. I’m sure you think you won’t be sent to the front lines if the US and NATO ends up in a multi front war with Russia, China, India, Brazil, multiple African nations, Cuba, Venezuela, and an ever growing list of other countries.
Maybe we should just chill out and accept that we live in a multipolar world and work together for common goals instead of fighting pointless wars to enrich the shareholders and prop up capitalism for a few more years before it collapses under its inherent contradictions.
Fucking NATO libs have gone off the rails.
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The US hasn’t threatened to nuke anyone, unlike russia. NATO doctrine states that we’d overwhelm russia with conventional means if they use a nuclear strike first, and russia knows that’s a fight it can’t win.
Now go fuck yourself, you tankie cunt spunktard.
The US is the only state to have ever used a nuclear weapon against another country.
And that country had invaded China, Korea, Thailand, French Indochina, Indonesia (Dutch East Indies), Burma, Philippines, had plans to invade Australia, and committed genocide while murdering hundreds of thousands of people. This does not even consider with the war crimes that were committed against civilians, and the thousands of instances where they use chemical and biological weapons to murder untold numbers of people.
Japan was a fascist country with an absolutely brutal military that had zero respect for any life. Their military leadership evem attempted to coup to dispose of their emperor after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, as they did not want the war to end at any cost.
It’s a little difficult to find empathy for a culture who considers absolute loyalty to the emperor and the military a prerequisite for existence. A culture where you are expected to follow any order, including suicide on a moment’s notice.
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They buy these off china where iphones are made.
It’d take 37bn USD a year to end world hunger. I’m also sure that if you are a ghoul and don’t care about that 100bn in investments would have a far bigger return on investment if they I dunno fixed their failing infrasctructure, used it to offer free healthcare, free education or literally anything. I’ve since stopped counting the amount of ‘lethal aid’ the USA has given but by now the USA could’ve combatted world hunger for about 4 years. Priorities I guess gotta pump up those MIC stock prices.
Biden still owes us $600 from his campaign promise lol
1200
Listen here jack
Listen Fat
Healthcare please
Or anything to help with inflation, etc.
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More trains please
How about 40 billion to support getting some bitches… on a Single Payer Healthcare program.
“bolster border”
Floating circular saws are bolsters now
But they’re not motorized chainsaw blades so according to one visiting
we need to pack it up because we’ve been checkmated. 
So I’m just reading through the comments here and I’m like wow lemmy has gotten much more based somehow where are all the libs. Then I realize y’all are from hexbear I had no idea it got federated. Hell yeah!
“The latest request from the Biden administration shows America’s continued commitment to helping Americans here at home and our friends abroad”
“…but God help them if those friends try to come here!”
Can a single liberal offer a single example of how anything in the USA has improved since Biden became president?
Is this actual money in this case or is this more designated monetary amounts of goods, ie the worth of the guns and tanks and other things we’ve been giving them that were just collecting dust over here?
Because that’s what most of the past monetary support was. No actual money was involved and so didn’t really cost us anything.
your answer to your question
the worth of the guns and tanks and other things we’ve been giving them that were just collecting dust over here
the worth of the guns and tanks and other things we’ve been giving them that were just collecting dust over here?
Use of reserves motivates replacement. Just because you’re giving them weapons that were produced in the past, and therefore whose (production) cost has already been incurred, doesn’t mean that occurs in a vacuum. With stock running low, contemporary money goes in to replenishing that stock. In effect, there’s no difference whether you send old or new equipment, because both incur costs in the present.
No actual money was involved and so didn’t really cost us anything.
It cost you exactly the amount it cost to produce them. Just because it was produced in the past, doesn’t mean it was free. You paid for it X years ago, and are only now seeing it used. You paid for it. Moreover, you’re now going to pay to replace it.
Except a bunch is old stock or overstock. The US was sitting on stockpiles of 203mm artillery rounds from the m110 that they would’ve had to pay someone to decommission, but it turns out that there’s a soviet arty piece that can use them, and guess what? Ukraine has em. Not to mention they chronically overproduced M1A1 Abrams to the point that generals were begging for it to stop, simply because it would be more expensive to shut down and restart production than simply keep making tanks nobody wanted or needed. Plus, a significant portion of the old inventory was DESIGNED to blow up russian equipment. So the US is clearing out old shit, crippling the Russian military, and aiding a new democracy. The only downside is the fresh money that is probably going to be dumped into the MIC to fill those clean shelves, but (and this is basically NCDposting but here we go) the fact that the US can almost singlehandedly provide Ukraine the resources to hold out against fucking Russia for over a year and that equioment still being only a tiny fraction of their total might? Holy shit. Grab the money shovels boys.
Plus it helps clear out shelf space for new shiny shit, why have massive stocks of old obsolute junk sitting in the Sierra army Depot when you can empty it out and fill it with shiny new junk!
Also its interesting how the Ukrainians have used some of the equipment which gives new data for R&D.
Who are we kidding. You think they wouldn’t just create excess anyways?
Who are you kidding thinking they don’t want to have a constant state of excess? It will be replaced, it has to be bought.
Idk I guess if the military budget increases significantly more in budget to back fill I’ll believe this. But im pretty sure we’re just giving away old shit that is already being replaced with newer models
Also what amounts are going where? Could be 39 billion to the border and 1 billion to Ukraine.
They intentionally lump these sums together so that they can distribute it as they desire. There is no reason to do this other then to hide funding.
I mean you could have just read the article.
13B for defense support and 8B in Humanitarian aid for Ukraine. 12B for federal disaster funding. ~7B for border funding, Fentanyl seizure Ops, and other stuff. So the 7B is vague, but it’s a budget. You could probably just go to the house or senate page once it’s released to get the details.
Yea we just have billions of dollars of military equipment that popped out of thin air and of course will not be replenished in the next trillion dollar military budget.
You have trillions of dollars worth of military equipment from the cold war mothballed or in storage.
Most of it will never see use because it’s outdated technology. There are thousands of planes, tanks and miscellaneous vehicles just sitting out in the desert waiting to be scrapped or reactivated.We have billions of dollars of military equipment that was made 10+ years ago and has been sitting around since then because we have no reason to use any of it.
To the point where military commanders are begging Congress to not make the military budget so big because it’s being wasted on building more assets that aren’t seeing any use.
Squeeze ut all in one pckage so people have a hard time saying no because they would deny Ukraine help…
Please Jack, another $40 million or Lockheed Martin is gonna JFK me.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A political divide on the issue has steadily grown, with the Republican-led House facing enormous pressure to demonstrate support for the party’s leader, Donald Trump, who has been very skeptical of the war.
As a supplemental request, the package the White House is sending to Congress falls outside the budget caps both parties agreed to as part of the debt ceiling showdown earlier this year.
“I look forward to carefully reviewing the Administration’s request to make sure it is necessary and appropriate,” McConnell said in a statement, “to keep America safe, secure our borders, support our allies, and help communities rebuild after disasters.”
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., released a statement urging Congress to swiftly pass critical funding for disaster relief programs while separately considering military aid for Ukraine.
Members of Congress have repeatedly pressed Defense Department leaders on how closely the U.S. is tracking its aid to Ukraine to ensure that it is not subject to fraud or ending up in the wrong hands.
Now, though, House Speaker McCarthy is facing pressure to impeach Biden over unproven claims of financial misconduct and it’s not clear whether a quick show of support for Ukraine could cause political damage in what’s expected to be a bruising 2024 reelection campaign.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
He will get nothing, probably expects nothing, but the positive press is there.
