Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
I do think the loneliness epidemic affects men more than women, and would argue it’s sexism harming men. On average, women are more likely to reach out, talk to people and family will check in on them if they are alone. Like, my husband (who is more outgoing than me and better at keeping up with friends) will call his mom or go up to see her, but leaves his dad alone unless he literally asks for something. Because men are taught it’s shameful to not be self sufficient, but women are taught to look for help if we need it.
Obviously this is not a straight gender split but on average it still plays out that way.
Patriarchy hurts everyone
What makes you think this is a gendered thing?
I don’t think it is a gendered thing, but there are societal expectations regarding men versus women that can complicate the issue
Anyone who has gendered expectations is not a friend. Avoid them.
Saying this doesn’t make the problem go away, it just makes you avoid the problem. Ironically, if you’re a man, this often makes the problem worse for you.
Women are better at being friends to each other. I’ve basically given up on trying to make friends with other men because they are terrible friends. At best, they make no effort at all at friendship and are completely passive, requiring you to call and make all the plans. At worst, they are hostile in various ways when you try to befriend them. It is very rare to meet another dude that makes effort to be a friend.
Edit: it’s soooo funny to see this comment being downvoted because it will only perpetuate your loneliness. You deserve it.
Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.
As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.
Women are not putting themselves out anymore
Women don’t owe you sex, learn and grow as a person
I am not sure what this means. Women will always make themselves available to a guy they like, they all just like the same few guys while the rest of male population gives them the ick.
People simply just don’t like men
There ain’t never a shortage of dick!
Society has always put premium on women due to biology. Yeah it results in some weird externalities for men. Women got their own bags though.
Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture
Lack of intergenerational teaching and connections to help kids mature when growing up
I think maybe those words are true, but they are so generic they don’t say anything to me.
I think women has changed due to social media, and that’s causing the men loneliness.
I’m confused. Are women on social media interfering on man-to-man friendships?
Huh??? We’ve been uncommunicative, miserable fucks for much longer than the internet has been around.
No, male culture has changed far more due to propaganda, etc.
Men that have been captured by the “alpha” and “masculinity” culture don’t realize that it makes them fucking radioactive. They are literally the reason why women choose the bear. Boys thinking that they have to be hyperbolic, over-aggressive, possessive, manipulative assholes in order to be a “man” are the exact reason that they are lonely.
These men don’t have a god given right to just “have” a girlfriend.
Your first hint that this is a naive take is that you’re brushing off a societal issue to a single, external factor.
Macho culture existed long before the loneliness. It’s a different kind of macho culture now that is detrimental.
Previous generations had less destructive outlets for machismo than boys of today. Being part of a sports team meant that you had an outlet and a group that you shared common goals with.
I think that many of the approaches that tried to explain it are mostly dangerous.
Like blaming it on gender norms, and toxic masculinity, the most common answer. Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
I think a more neutral approach is needed to explain it. Instead of trying to take some explanation that fits your political views and then try to push it as a solution to the problem, the problem should be investigated by itself, and once an explanation is reached accept it even if it does not fit your political mindset.
One hint is that most people that feel alone lack a romatic relationship, the most common approach seems to be that “nah romatic relationships are not needed and we will not even consider them part of the problem”. When it’s pretty obviously that the lack of this kind of relationships is fundamental in male loneliness.
Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
It sounds like you completely miss the application of the explanation itself. The phrase toxic masculinity describes the social norms and expectations that men act a certain way. Society imposes gender norms on people such that those who don’t comply are at the highest risk of being shunned or ostracized, and having trouble making social connections. And the social pressure may make men act in ways they wouldn’t otherwise, so that they grow up poorly equipped to be introspective and understand their own wants/desires/emotions/drives/motivations.
Toxic masculinity tells men what they’re not allowed to be, and tells men what they must be. Both sides of that same coin are toxic to men, and by extension those that the men interact with.
Feels more like an explanation looking for a question that otherwise. Explanation doesn’t seems to emerge from the problem, but from the solution.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
I haven’t meet a man that accused male loneliness because “others expect me to act manly” or because “I don’t know what I want because toxic masculinity”. Toxic masculinity may cause anxiety, discomfort or things like that in not complying men, but I don’t see it causing lack of romantic relationships. The cause of the former must be other.
The whole “men are wrong for wanting to be loved and they should be happy being alone” feels a little too much invalidating on people’s wants and desires.
While sexism and male toxicity is bad I don’t see how ending that would improve in anything male loneliness as it’s solution does not address what’s making many males feel lonely.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
Actually, your comment touches on something that is really interesting to me, and a major part of where you and I differ on what male loneliness means. You’ve elevated the romantic committed relationship with a woman as the primary means by which men are expected to derive social standing and stability, but I view it primarily as an issue of friendships, mainly friendships with other men. The loneliness problem, in my view, comes from men being unable to form strong relationships with other men, and a wife or girlfriend or whatever is secondary to that.
Maybe it’s because I’ve always had stability in my friendships but didn’t have committed romantic relationships until my 30’s, but it seems like the problem of loneliness comes from not feeling like you have people in your corner (friends, family, even work colleagues), but I think focusing on sexual and romantic relationships is itself isolating and lonely, even for men who do get married. Now that I’m married I still spend plenty of time with my friends, married or single, based on the topic/activity/interest that ties us together.
Toxic masculinity is definitely not a part of relationships falling apart.
Anyone who had live through being in a group of single people through their youth and, as years pass, became the only one single on that group could probably confirm the experience. Friendships do not fall apart just because some male toxicity. It’s way simpler, it’s just that when two people do not have partners they can devote a lot of time and emotional energy to each other. When you are single a friend can easily be the most important person of your life. When you have a partner the amount of time and emotional energy that you have for friends is inferior, as you want to spend a great deal of that time and energy to your partner (as it’s natural). Then relationships became different. It’s not that it’s impossible to have “married friends”. But it’s certainly not the same as having a close single friend. And toxic masculinity does not take a part in any part of this process. The process is just a natural thing to happen on these situations.
Yes, people can cope trying to make new friendships. But that’s just a way to cope. Same as filing your live with hobbies and social activities can help coping with the lack of a romantic partner. But it does not solve the base issue. It’s like taking antidepressants for a depression, it helps, but it’s no solution, and the lack of antidepressants was not the issue.
Having a romantic relationship is important for many people. Denying that can be alienating, as you are denying personal experiences and personal feelings. I don’t think that solution is convincing people that their natural desires of being as loved as they see other people to be is just wrong and that they should live with even wanting that love (while they see plenty of other people enjoying that kind love).
That’s what I’m talking about, though. You see male friendships as a method of coping with a more fundamental problem relating to women, and I totally disagree, and argue that healthy male friendships are social connections worth developing and maintaining in their own right, whether you are or aren’t in a committed relationship with a woman. Even your framing of why male friendships fall apart involves women. It’s the centrality of women in your worldview that is preventing you from seeing how male friendships are a critical thing to have in addressing male loneliness.
Put another way, married men need healthy male friendships, too. Putting all of that emotional labor into a single link with a woman is fragile and unreliable, and I’d argue inherently unhealthy. People need multiple social links and the resilience and support that comes from whole groups connected in a web, not just a bunch of isolated pairings.
And to be clear, I’m not saying that friendships are a replacement for romantic and sexual relationships. I’m saying that social fluency, empathy, and thoughtfulness necessary for being able to maintain deep friendships are important skillsets for maintaining romantic relationships as well. The lack of romantic partners, then, isn’t the “base issue,” but is a symptom of the internal state of the person and how that person interacts with the world.
So I maintain that your worldview switches cause and effect, at least compared to mine. And maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not trying to convince you that I’m right. I’m bringing all this up to share that the surprising part of this line of comments is that I was genuinely not expecting someone to treat romantic difficulties as a primary or fundamental cause of male loneliness. To show you that at least there are other people who view these issues very differently from you, and that there’s a broad diversity of thought on the topic.
Fun fact. At no point in my comments you’ll see that I referred to “male friends” or “female friends”.
Plenty of men had female friends that got away because they fell in love with some other man/woman. And I don’t think toxic masculinity would have any impact in a friendship between a woman and a non-toxic man. And those relationships also break apart anyway.
It makes no difference the gender of the friends in my theory. And if course I don’t think that woman (or men) are, as a gender, the cause of male loneliness, or that women are to blame for anything, much less for also wanting to have a romantic relationship.
The only gendered part of the issue, and the reason on why we call it “male loneliness” is that women seems to have an easier time achieving romantic relationships when they want to. While men tend to have a much harder time and their loneliness tends to be involuntary more often than not. (Again not that women, as a gender, is to blame for this situation).
The thing is that you can be the best friend in the world, a partner will always come first for the other person. It’s not a matter of lack of empathy or any other"toxic male behavior" here. It’s just people having different priorities in life. And a problem with some people being no one’s priority. And I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with feeling bad about not being anyone number one priority in life, it’s just a plain sad fact that’s normal to make people sad about it.
I’m not convinced that my theory is true. As this is an incredibly complex topic. I just think that the whole “male toxicity is to blame” is just an easy scape goat or political dogma. “Toxic masculinity and sexism is bad so it must be the cause of every gendered issue in society”, and then constructing the argument needed for that statement to maintain true. And while sexism it’s obviously bad, it does not need to be the source of any and all problems. Some problems, I think, have other sources.
Perhaps I’ve erred in framing it in heteronormative terms, but it seems that the type of problem being described does depend in part on sexual orientation, and the main point I’m making isn’t gendered at all. You’ve framed romantic partnership as the cornerstone of healthy social interaction, something that needs to be in place first in order for men to thrive socially. I see it as more of a capstone, the last thing to put in place after already building up something strong and robust.
People who are emotionally and socially healthy can find romantic partners that complement them well, without putting too much on that relationship or even straining it from over-burdening that link.
The thing is that you can be the best friend in the world, a partner will always come first for the other person.
And so framing it as being a competition or ranking ignores how these things are complementary. Having strong outside friendships improves the romantic relationships and strengthens the long term commitment there. Expecting the romantic partner to be the everything is what makes people lonely, because we’re not built for drifting independent pairings untethered to the rest of society. We partner up and the web of relationships outside that relationship provides bracing support for the romantic link itself.
Toxic masculinity is the expectation that men can’t be certain things, including emotionally supportive, and that stifling effect on male relationships with others isolates those men. The loneliness that follows is part of it, almost an inevitable consequence of it.
What i really want to see is how the rise of ai companions will affect all this. Nomi, replika, and the others are already doing good, and i forsee that it will keep growing as the technology improves, for better or for worse
They are not doing good. People are becoming dependent on chatbots produced by for-profit companies to get their fix of human socialisation. That’s absolutely awful, very unfortunate, and most assuredly unhealthy.
What i meant by good was financially, not as “good for society”. Maybe i should have made that clear
I think you meant “doing well” 🙃
Oh, I see. Yeah, they’ve definitely taken advantage of the situation.
This is one thing i have wanted to point out. But it good to see how sensitive the whole issue is. That -10 downvote on the original comment tells me people are really sensitive to the whole phenomenon
It always felt like between the ages of 12 - 18 (basically while you were in middle-/highschool) you need to get some sort of “seal of approval” from the other sex as a prove that you are relationship material. If you didn’t get that you’ll always be seen as somebody to stay away from.
I’ve heard a lot of times that those young relationships are completely inconsequential, but I think it’s those lack of consequences that serve best as a social teaching tool on how to recognize and have an actual meaningful relationship when you’re older.
And I feel like this experience is exactly what a lot of men and women are struggling to get. They have trouble finding partners and if they do they are not good partners themselves. Which is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, you are deemed bad relationship material so you’ll become bad relationship material.
I recognized this about myself. At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason. There will be expectations towards me that I’m neither aware of nor will probably be able to fulfill. Dating well below my age range is neither something I can pull off nor something that I am comfortable with. So I’m forever stuck in this weird limbo of wanting a relationship but knowing that whoever will be my first partner will probably not have a great time with me.
I think this is also the root of a lot of toxic behavior. People turn to sources of knowledge to at least get some idea about what an relationship is about. But all they find is the Cosmopolitans and the Andrew Tate’s who prey upon peoples’ loneliness and desperation for profit. I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher, I understand that nobody wants to throw away years of their life so that the next person will maybe have a better time with your partner.
Ali Wong had a good joke about this in her special with something along the lines off not wanting a divorce because then she’d have to teach the next guy how to please her. Taylor Tomilison also had one about wanting to call her ex during sex just so he could explain to the next guy how he did it for her. I know those are just jokes, but it think there is a bit of truth in them.
I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher,
Well actually that’s not true. There’s a lot of people who are willing to put up with younger people/inexperienced people, but these people have difficulty too because of … reasons.
I’m just autistic\BAD and indecisive and had a romantic trauma at school and my environment (mom) is not mentally well at all (right now it’s not worse than hoarding and forgetting everything, but it was).
However, with my looks it’s somehow enough for me to just be kinda clean and shaved and in a public place for very pleasant young women (and I suppose much kinder than that girl from school) to try to talk to me with possible romantic perspective (which I usually realize after the conversation ends).
Except it just doesn’t work, either I don’t understand them, or I’m petrified and don’t know what to do or say, or I postpone interpreting the conversation to somewhere late, or I’m ashamed of the mess where I live and showing my life to that person if it goes somewhere.
So - sometimes it’s just about never having the courage to go forward. Not about other people discarding you.
EDIT: ah, also about BAD - in the mania phase one might slowly build up background dreams about some women one knows, and when trying to make a decision in regards to the woman they are really communicating with, to feel ashamed both before everyone touched by those dreams and before that woman ; I guess some people are fine with that, some even have open relationships, but this is not a common thing.
I know the feeling too well of not having a place to invite somebody to. But I always told myself that if it ever came down to it, I hopefully could convince the two halfbrained adults that call themselves my parents to behave for a few hours. But in the end it didn’t really matter because it never came down to it anyway.
A long while ago there was a post by a distressed young woman who struggled to enter relationships. I really connected with what she said but of course had no answer for her either. But what I’ve noticed is that all comments completely missed the point of the question.
I used a casino as a metaphor for dating which I think applies pretty well. Dating is essentialy that - no matter how much effort you put in, nothing is ever guaranteed or given, it all essentially comes down to luck.
What the vast majority of people hear when somebody is asking for dating advice is that they play the game but lack any success. They then give you advice on how to play your cards right, how to increase your chances, how to cut you losses, etc. But they don’t understand it’s not about how to win the table, but how to get into the casino in the first place. Not what to I tell the dealer at the table, but what do I tell the bouncer at the door?
It’s not about the rejection I’m facing, its about the fact that my mere approach is seen as an insult. It’s the audacity to ask to be included in something that is considered a normal part of life for others.
There’s a disorder, I forgot what it’s called but it makes people feel especially uneasy around psychopaths, even if the psychopaths themselves are extremely good at hiding their psychopathy. Basically those people can pick up on queues nobody else, not even the psychopaths themselves are aware of. This is essential how I and many others feel, like there’s something about us that we are unaware of but everybody else picks up on that tells them to keep their distance. Something that is outside of our control. We could have every trait that would make anybody other than us attractive, yet we would still end up being alone because at some point nature pointed her finger at us at said “Yes, but not you”.
It’s not about the rejection I’m facing, its about the fact that my mere approach is seen as an insult. It’s the audacity to ask to be included in something that is considered a normal part of life for others.
Perhaps you are approaching wrong people.
There’s one rule I’ve learned (but haven’t internalized, still a virgin and all that) from my aunts and just today had it reinforced by my therapist.
Do what you want. If you really like a girl you are talking to, offer her to do something. Start small, no “let’s have a date”, just offer something interesting to you that may be interesting to her. To have tea in some pleasant place. To walk in a park. Be honest, if she asks if it’s romantic. Apologize if she dislikes it. Might even be honest that you don’t know anything about relationships. I mean, what do you fear more, shame from saying it or to remain lonely till grave? And that conversation doesn’t define all your further life (most likely).
At least that’s my plan the next time somebody tries to talk to me with a smile. Mostly happens at summer, so there’s time to find all fossilized sandwiches behind furniture and repair all broken closet doors. In theory, in fact some of these are broken for many years.
like there’s something about us that we are unaware of but everybody else picks up on that tells them to keep their distance
Are you sure you don’t have ASD?..
On the other side - I have ASD and, surprisingly, ASD is not the main thing preventing me.
I have found one funny thing - when I cut explicit materials a bit, say, less pr0n and such, and cut stimulants (sugar, caffeine) and eat more meat and dairy, people seem to like me more. But this is not a firm law.
It would make sense, though, that when you are healthier and have fewer outlets for certain kinds of energy, you are physically more attractive in ways hard to notice.
At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason.
How old are you?
I don’t want to tie any personal information to my lemmy account but let’s say I’m still in YouTubes biggest advertisment age bracket.
A quick search says you’re 55-64. I bet you can get old divorcees at that age too.
Its 25-34.
Is that by dollars spent or just population size?
By CPV, did you mean most populous.
As is echoed a lot in this entire post of replies: therapy isn’t really mentioned here. And that might be a key when it comes to male mental and emotional health.
So paying for a “friend” by the hour?
Someone’s never been to therapy!
I think therapy helps as a remediation, but it’s not preventive nor does it fully solve the problem because ultimately it’s transactional and paying someone to listen is fully different from finding someone who listens to you that you also want to listen to.
That’s the thing though: if you’re having trouble finding someone who wants to listen to you, the problem might possibly be you. let’s just say it’s not out of the realm of possibility. But if you are happy to sit there refusing therapy with circular logic: you’re your own problem and all this is is you’ve found a way to self sustain that cover and you’ve convinced yourself. Fair enough. That’s your decision,
therapy is really for those who are ready to admit they are unhappy with how things are(and willing to realize they play a part in their unhappiness) and more open to tearing down those old toxic behaviours to build something more engaging that might do better at relationships .
If you don’t see yourself in that description, then you’re right. Therapy would do nothing for you.
Explain to me in actual words what a therapist is going to accomplish.
“Doctor doctor you’ve got to do something! Third spaces don’t exist, there’s no loitering signs everywhere you’ll be arrested for standing around talking, everyone my age had kids and their lives fell off, bars charge $9.50 for an ounce of bourbon and expect a tip and they play Nickelback loud enough to be heard from the moon so I’ve just been sitting at home alone drinking diet soda and playing Subnautica over and over again and while I utterly love this game it’s getting a little stale and Below Zero isn’t…good at all? So I guess I’m a little bored.”
“…Here’s a prescription for an SSRI, that’ll be $900.”
Explain to me in actual words what a therapist is going to accomplish.
Lots of men aren’t taught emotional intelligence and therapy is helpful for better identifying your emotions so your choices can actually have impactbon them.
I take it you didn’t read and process the rest of my comment?
I’m very aware of the strawman, you specifically asked for an answer. Those are real issues, but you asked how a therapist could help.
I was a pilot one or two careers ago, so I’m going to put it this way:
Feelings are liabilities, not assets. You launch an Airbus out of Newark and a few hundred feet up you hit more geese than your engines can take leaving you out of thrust, low on altitude and low on options, the emotional decision is to curl up on the floor and snot cry because you’re now in more danger than nature designed you to handle.
On occasion you’ll find cases where pilots do lock up like that. The kindest thing anyone will ever say about those pilots is “The primary cause of the accident was pilot error.”
Now listen to how they talk about Captain Sully. “He’s so calm. There’s no emotion in his voice, he just started working the problem.” Stopping to identify exactly which crayola crayon color exactly matched his emotional state in that moment wasn’t going to lengthen any lives; starting the APU and configuring the airplane for best glide did though. You stay in your feelings, you start doing stupid irrational things, you’re gonna die for sure. You push all of that down to your ass where it can be safely clenched out of the way and you THINK.
Having feelings is how you fuck up when your decisions matter the most. Getting rid of them is the useful skill, not giving each one a Baskin Robbins 31 flavors marketing name.
You repress your feelings and wonder why you’re lonely. You don’t realize how much they impact your life until you know how to recognize them, I myself went through that too. It wasn’t until I learned more about my emotions that I truly felt happy, wanted. Repressing feelings doesn’t work, not in a social setting, because you repress all your emotions, even the positive ones.
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Let’s put it another way:
“Why aren’t men using electrical appliances anymore?”
“Well, since the Republicans shut down Underwriter’s Labs 40 years ago they’re just too dangerous. A poll conducted by Pew Research in 2062 found only 30% of men between the ages of 20 and 40 have attempted to use a kitchen appliance and of those 30% none polled did so without being shocked, burned or lacerated. Of the men polled, none of them reported cooking indoors more than twice a year; they either exclusively seek food that requires no preparation or those who have access to the outdoors cook over wood fires. One in ten report eating canned or frozen food cold on at least a weekly basis.”
“There’s just nothing you can do to get men to seek mental health services, is there?”
How is individual talk therapy supposed to fix industry deregulation due to crony capitalism?
===
I live in a town that is mostly a suburb of a military base. They’ve been cutting down as much forest as they can to cram in oversized McMansions to accomodate the influx of people moving out of the cities. Deer and raccoons have been running rampant in my neighborhood because their habitats out in the woods are being destroyed for subdivisions and shopping centers. The county recently failed to get the general assembly to budge on water restrictions on the two rivers the county government is authorized to pull water from, so they’re starting to pressure my town (which has its own waterworks that pulls from a different river than the county) to share ours. None of the people coming into the area are joining a community; none exists here. People here build tall opaque fences on their property lines and watch Netflix alone. There is no community, only a crowd.
And then a therapist is going to ask a stupid and unhelpful question like “How does that make you feel?”
My car doesn’t start most of the time and when it does it doesn’t run for very long, I’ve missed work three times last week alone because of car troubles, he’s threatening to fire me if I don’t get it right but I don’t have the money for a mechanic. “How does that make you feel?”
Feelings are the raw ore from which bad decisions are forged. How I fell is wrong and irrelevant. What am I supposed to DO?
I don’t think therapy can help everyone. I think it can help those who are (either knowingly or subconsciously) looking inward for solutions. For those of us that are fairly comfortable in our own skins and are frustrated by externalities, I don’t think therapy would be very productive. That said, at a personal level with the goal of self improvement I probably could be a little more introspective about some things but I’m not bothered enough to go to a therapist for it.
I’m reminded of Joe Shea. The one who was senior chief manager of something or other at NASA during the Apollo program. You can tell Joe was a good man from how he took the Apollo 1 fire: He wanted to kill himself. He struggled to live with the idea that three of his close friends, people who trusted him and his engineers, burned to death in a machine he had some responsibility for. The man who isn’t fucked up in that position doesn’t need to be in that position.
My understanding of history is he was sent to see some psychologists, and their remarks was “Joe is very smart.” I’ve been in the aviation industry myself and I’ve danced around issues of mental health. FAR 67 has some things to say about what mental health is and isn’t a federal offense to let your doctor to tell Oklahoma City. HAHAHAHAHA. Fuck.
That’s the peak of manliness right there; that’s a man who takes his responsibilities seriously, they guy who is completely wrecked by those three little words “They trusted me.” Or more to the point, the chore of adding the letters “ed” to “they trust me.” If the effort of lifting that suffix into place wouldn’t bend your soul, kindly get the fuck out of my aerospace industry.
This was in the mid 1960’s, the stigma of seeing a shrink was even louder back then. I’m not sure how it actually played out but in the docudrama From The Earth To The Moon, Joe Shea didn’t take the suggestion from Deke Slayton that he see a psychiatrist gently. According to Wikipedia he “outsmarted” them, giving the answers he knew they’d want to hear.
From my perspective it’s a perfectly good suggestion. If you’re in the shop running a tool and it throws a blue chip in your eye, you go see the ophthalmologist to get your eye fixed. If you have a heart attack you go to the cardiologist to get your heart fixed. The thing us technician types struggle with is medicine is a squishier science than we’re used to, and psychology is the squishiest among them, especially given the FAA’s idea of “Oh he’s not perfect? Kill his career forever.” HAHAHAHAHAAAAA. Fuck. “Hey, let’s make it illegal for pilots to receive treatment or be on medication for mental disorders.” “You mean let’s make it illegal to be a pilot while mentally ill?” “What’s the difference?” “Well the way you phrased it incentivizes pilots who think they have a problem to keep it to themselves and go untreated.” “pssh I guess but when is that ever going to happen.” HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA. Fuck.
I think the point I’m trauma dumping around is Joe Shea had suffered actual mental and emotional trauma and did need the attention of mental health professionals. That’s an appropriate use of therapy. And that it may be more productive to frame it as “injury” rather than “illness” in cases like this.
The average male member of the public right now, on the other hand, hasn’t had his psyche pushed in by the deaths of his friends that he’s at least partially responsible for. The average 20 something guy gained sentience in a world that said to him “We hate you, now pay for everything or else.” And to quote Rodney Dangerfield, “Fuck me? FUCK YOU!”
For decades it has been ingrained in men that they are to be held to a very specific standard. Men don’t cry, men are strong, men have to take care of everyone else, stop your whining, I’ll give you something to cry about, be the alpha male, that’s “gay”, strength, weakness, and so on.
My father, and grandfather, both grew up with a code of silence. Feelings weren’t talked about, but relayed through their wives; except anger. That was given directly through corporal punishment (hand or belt).
I was always “emotional” growing up. I cried “like a baby” over “nothing”. No one ever came to check on me, or console me, during any of my “fits”. In fact, there were times I was ridiculed for it (sometimes by family members).
When I was 19 my grandmother died. I was really close with her; she was the only one who ever came to my aid and defended me. It tore me up so bad I could barely talk without breaking down. I was told multiple times that I shouldn’t be so upset, and that I was overreacting (by my family). Everything came to a head when all at once my cousins, aunts, uncles, and even brother yelled at me because I was being selfish and unreasonable, and insensitive to my grandfather because “he just lost his wife”.
Oh, and apologies are for “pussies”.
Anyway, it’s not really about me. I wanted to paint a picture for you as to why I’m lonely. Do with that what you will.
Btw, It’s a lot more pronounced here on the internet. Since it’s a filter bubble. If you dive into the real world, you’ll find a lot of males also have healthy lives, a lot of hobbies, they’re going out with friends, playing football once a week etc. I mean it’s certainly there, and a big issue in society. All I want to say is, don’t just look at some social media and draw conclusions from that. The perspective here is heavily skewed and making it look more desperate than it is.
I think there is a lot of wisdom here. I’m old, many of my meaningful relationships were formed before three was an internet. Now I use online tools to stay in touch with friends who are friends I have interacted with face-to-face, not people know solely online.
That’s not to say meaningful relationships cannot be owned online. I have met a number of people IRL who I originally met playing Football Manager or on XBox Live.
But online relationships are not a substitute for real face-to-face interactions.
I tell people that making friends needs to be intentional. It takes work and commitment.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it’s the women’s fault men are lonely. He says men are their victim, pictures women as evil while men should be on top. This creates an even bigger isolation and creates sex offenders.
In Japan and South Korea there are many men who are isolated because of videogames and it’s online culture. They have a relationship with a Nintendo character of AI on their phone (no joke).
Because a lot of lonely men are on the internet, it’s not a correct representation of the real world. Doesn’t change the fact there are many non the less.
Just because there are many different cultures accessable for anyone through the internet, it’s easier to isolate yourself in such a culture. Whether it’s on reddit, 4chan, through games, forums or other social media groups. But it keeps you off the streets, away from real socializing, learning to behave, how to talk to a girl, find a hobby which isn’t on your computer, meet real friends.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it’s the women’s fault men are lonely
Peterson has a habit of saying things that might technically be true in isolation but will then disagree with you when you try and make a conclusion from it. In this case he has also said it’s men’s fault for not making women a good enough ‘offer’.
He’s a racist, misogynist, narcicist, piece of shit who sexually objectified his own daughter (if not more than that)
piece of shit who sexually objectified his own daughter (if not more than that)
Was aware of the rest but not this, what is this referring to?
Comments he made about her and putting a photo of her being of questionable age in a bikini on the cover of one of his works.
And what’s up with cab drivers and B.O. - how long are those shifts? I’m thinkin’ Hey!
sdfhjlaks;fjlk;asfjkl;sfjakl;
What’s up with dumb answers to serious questions? I’m just wondering, Hey!
Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it’s labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there’s no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
When you’re emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you’re not motivated to be around them since they won’t fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you’re also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you’re only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.
When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it’s easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you’re even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.
Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.
But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
Except for children with autism, I’d say. My mom couldn’t get me to be girly or feminine while I was growing up, I just did what made sense, sometimes that was a girly or feminine thing and other times not.
Maybe the patriarchy is an allistic people problem lol.
