The screenshot shows the recommendations from https://join-lemmy.org/.
Still being federated with exploding-heads does not mean the instance supports them. But it means that shit-heads are allowed to take part in the discussions on their communities. They do intoxicate the discussions we will have. They will attack minorities. Maybe you will not be harassed by them, more vulnerable people will be. They are allowed to moderate communities on these instances. Exploding-heads members actively guide young and unknowing people to their hateful instance.
They try to start discussions about the holocaust https://sh.itjust.works/post/227268. They create communities only to crosspost exploding-heads content https://lemmy.world/c/pharma They take over discussions against them https://exploding-heads.com/comment/132189 “WHY are vulnerable people joining a decentralized system? Isnt this why you want a closed, not for public eyes community?”
This was a link to exploding-heads, because when someone copies a permalink of a comment from them on another instance, it will be a link to their instance.
Are we building a place where vulnerable people are welcome and safe or are we building a place where nazis are welcome and safe?
They want you to block them, they comment that everywhere. They block people who are in favor of defederating them https://sh.itjust.works/post/225714 When their opponents won’t see them anymore, they can harass and recruit without being noticed.
Blocking will not solve the problem. They will spread even when you close your eyes.
Maybe this was not done intentionally, but now there is a post with a list of ‘health communities on Lemmy’ with the first entry guiding to exploding heads. https://lemmy.world/post/396561
It is still possible that some of the mentioned instances do support them. The owner of sh.itjust.works says that because of “free speech” all other instances would be allowed. It is suspicious to me that his line is drawn only for lemmygrad https://sh.itjust.works/comment/130474
The decision to block the Lemmygrad instance was less a question of censorship, and more an issue of personal conviction. As a volunteer dedicating my personal resources and time to facilitating a space for users to create, discover, and discuss - not just on this instance, but across the Fediverse - I admit that this choice was made alone, selfishly, without the consent or thoroughly considering the collective opinion of the community. With the above said, sh.itjust.works has had the lemmygrad instance blocked from its first day.
I’d like to also point out that the lemmygrad instance has far more blocked instances than what is currently blocked here. Maybe you can create a post on that instance to see what that’s all about and report back?
At the same time they seem to ignore the call and vote to defederate with exploding-heads https://sh.itjust.works/post/433483.
They rejected to delete The_Donald from sh.itjust.works until they feared to get isolated from the other instances: https://lemmy.ml/post/1467310. They where aware of The_Donald and ignored early warnings. (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/266248). TD was more important to them than keeping the only mod of their 4th biggest community c/patientgamers (https://sh.itjust.works/post/291747, https://sh.itjust.works/post/388922)
Since The_Donald was removed, I did not find more racist content on the mentioned servers. That is part their tactics. They act harmless but recruit to their instance, attract likeminded people and chase others away. Discussions on sh.itjust.works about such topics are very toxic already, soon they might be able to do more harm.
(My research is very limited, as i could not search for all exploding-heads member content on other instances by entering their domain. I know there are nice communities on sh.itjust.works.)
What can be done? On joinmastodon.org there is a Mastodon Server Covenant with very few useful rules, one of them is “Active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia”. https://joinmastodon.org/covenant It would be a first step to implement these rules for join-lemmy.org. At least instances that want to be recommended on there should have to agree to that rule.
More actions should be taken now. Please make suggestions. Things will only become more complicated. The next reddit wave is incoming.
For those who did not already know:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
This is not the first time new platforms face these problems, do we really have to repeat the same mistakes?
-Share/crosspost
-Contact admins
update: lemmy.word defederated eh
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They’re playing the traditional Alt-Right playbook, and they’re playing a bunch of instance admins like fiddles. I’ve noticed a consistent pattern of abusive trolls being from that instance. My secondary account is on sh.itjust.works, and I’m looking for another instance to be my secondary instance that I use to look at lemmy.world content I can’t see from this, my primary account. Thus far, there aren’t any instances I can find that have a federation / defederation list that matches my ideal list, so for now, I have my happy account and my “it stresses me out” account.
It seems like there are two camps here in the threadiverse. People who are excited to find an instance admin who moderates the way they like, and people who think an instance admin is only responsible for uptimes and that this entire experiment should be fully unmoderated
Be the change you want to see. Setting up an instance is surprisingly easy, it’s the admin stuff that will take much more time, and finding users that will probably be hard. Also scaling once you hit a certain level of size/traffic, but that’d be a good problem to have. To me the most beautiful part of the fediverse is that if you’re not finding the instance with rules/defederation/etc you want you can make that place exist.
If you are interested in doing so I’d be more than happy to give what advice or help I can.
Running your own is the way, and you get to choose. I personally don’t defederate any instances so far, and I think in some way being able to see that content and be aware that it exists is good to not become an echo chamber and remain aware of the gravity of the problem.
Being outside of the US, I wasn’t aware of how bad the alt-right was until they started invading Reddit, which used to be rather welcoming and accepting, as was Twitter many years ago. If we just defederate them, it’s easy to forget it even exists, and end up with essentially two competing echo chambers.
If not already a feature, instances could filter remote communities and drop posts/comments from locally defederated instances so that local users don’t see that content despite the remote instance hosting it. You own the server, you can present the content however you want.
I’m sure in time some of those filtered instances will pop up, if they haven’t already.
Join us at lemmy.dbzer0.com. We’re federated with most instances including Beehaw. And no Tankies or Fascists are here. lemmygrad and explodingheads are both defederated.
Good to know I have to stay away from dbzer0, since communists, the true leftists, are distanced away and treated like Nazis. Communists are the only people that protect the world from alt-right and stuff like genocide, because liberals are spineless anti-revolutionaries.
you lot are distanced away because you cant behave lol
There’s more to leftism than just those who support authoritarian states.
The scary part about this is that i think you’re deadly serious.
You do know the .ml domain for lemmy.ml was chosen to represent Marxism-Leninism, right, comrade?
Edit: perhaps they chose it because .ml domains are free, however Nutomic and Dessalines are absolutely what many would describe as “Tankies”. I’m not saying that’s bad, but it is a fact. See my other comment: https://thelemmy.club/comment/217452
.ml means Mali country code.
Yes - but none of the devs or admins of lemmy.ml are Mali
They are communists though.
Here for example is Dessalines’ communist reading list.
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/dessalines_marxism_study_plan.html
I don’t mean to imply that this is bad or not, but simply to point it out as a fact.
.ml TLDs are free. You should go back to r/conspiracy or /pol/.
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I mean, .ml domains are free: http://www.point.ml/en/index.html?lang=en that’s the reason it was used.
perhaps they chose it because .ml domains are free, however Nutomic and Dessalines are absolutely what many would describe as “Tankies”
I think it’s a little column A, and a little column B.
The scarier part is you imply liberals have ever fought fascists, never hiding behind the veil of communist heroes.
Comments like this is why instances need downvotes displayed
There’s no feasible way to stop people of a specific ideology from using an open source piece of software. You say blocking isn’t the answer but I’m not sure what more you can expect. Even if you invent some kind of automated Nazi detector, what action can it enforce beyond banning or blocking?
The most realistic solution I can think of is letting instances or users subscribe to curated blacklists. Something akin to Adblock or email server spam blacklists.
what action can it enforce beyond banning or blocking?
Defederation, that’s one of the key concepts of the fediverse
It keeps them from participating by demoting them to the kids table, but you’re still in a glass house to some extent.
I think this is the right answer, but the structure is going to require some amount of frequent drama just like this every time. You can keep an open federation policy until proven malicious, or you can verify partners, but I don’t see the way around discussions.
Even if you invent some kind of automated Nazi detector
As interesting a problem as this might be (my final year undergrad project was similar in nature), the nuance of written word can be significant and difficult to detect. Making a good product and then ensuring multiple communities would adopt it is not realistic in 2023.
What is realistic, however, is a zero tolerance policy against such individuals. What we should be doing is ostracizing them. You take away their platform, you take away their power. They can only do so much damage if they’re all gathered up in a single community with no ties or influence to the rest of the world.
MOM!!! People are disagreeing with me!!! :(
Pwease defederate
Lick my unwashed taint chud
Gross, you really want their tongue touching you?
Good point
It is fascinating to watch a lot of people who got purged from social media for being too leftist and flocked to a defederated forum created by free speech enjoyers go on to immediately start complaining about the lack of censorship and damning the concept of free speech having learned nothing in the process.
The most popular suggestion here seems to be isolating yourselves from any part of the Fediverse which doesn’t accept your demands. Now, if we could just get the Nazis to be stupid enough to follow in your footsteps and curtail their own methods of ideological propagation, this place might actually start to be kind of chill.
Instead they keep fucking talking to people and trying to convince them of stuff, which has proven vastly more efficient in achieving their goals. I am severely disappointed in all of you for making Nazis look intelligent by comparison.
I welcome your down votes, as disapproval from you is a mark that my brain is not grossly malfunctioning.
Oh please, could you be any more transparent in your attempts to gaslight the community? It is clear that you affiliate with bigoted and alt-right mindsets.
You are so cliche that your argument boils down to “Thinx about ya freedum of speks” as the reason behind your ignorant point of view.
Furthermore you are so one dimensional that you then play on the “you are all leftists” cliche. And then double down on the strawman argument of “downvoting me proves me right”.
0/10 Pathetic.
100%. Work together on stability, resilience and privacy while ignoring trolls? Hell no! Let’s focus on creating silos and sniffing our own farts first!
Telling the racists to get out is sniffing our own farts? Yeeeee, ok…
Shit, to what server should I move that doesn’t federate with nazis? Idc how they call themselves these days, you know what I mean with nazis
Also I see the name lemmygrad thrown around, what’s the story with them?
The questions aren’t specifically for OP
Also I see the name lemmygrad thrown around, what’s the story with them?
Lemmygrad.ml is an instance for Marxist-Leninists and other Socialists who are broadly pro-AES (Actually Existing Socialism, i.e. the USSR, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, East Germany, etc.) and anti-West. Criticism of AES is fine; but the assumption is that you’re there because you think AES is better than Actually Existing Capitalism. If you’ve ever heard of podcasts like TrueAnon or The Deprogram (or even Chapo Traphouse, to some extent, though they’re more “ML-sympathetic” than “Outright Marxist-Leninists”), it’ll give you a general idea of what sort of politics they’re about.
Lemmygrad is where Leftist Redditors go when their favorite subs (/r/ChapoTrapHouse, /r/MoreTankieChapo, /r/FULLCOMMUNISM, /r/GenZedong) get banned or quarantined.
I’m not a big Lemmy-head, but I saw this post on lemmygrad so I assume that means your instance is federated with lemmygrad.
Let’s say I’m technically affiliated to the biggest ML party of the country where I come from, am I going to find marxists, or is it more of an American leftist thing?
Lemmygrad is a pro-authoritarian socialist instance
As far as instances that don’t federate with exploding heads, there’s sopuli.xyz, beehaw.org, slrpnk.net, and Lemmy.dbzer0.com
The first two are general purpose instances. Sopuli is kinda the most traditionally run instance. Its actively moderated, but its unlikely to defederate from an instance just because its big and moderating traffic from it is more than they can handle. Beehaw DOES defederate from instances that generate more traffic than they can manage. This is where my primary account is because the moderation style of “make the community a pleasant place to be regardless of the popularity of other instances’ popularity” is definitively my speed.
Slrpnk and dbzer0 are focused instances. Slrpnk is focused on ecological friendliness, sustainability, and making the physical world a more survivable space. They describe themselves as not trying to create a Utopian (impossibly idealistic) society, but rather a eutopian (acheivably idealistic) society. Dbzer0 is focused on digital anarchism. The slogan on their instance admin’s website alludes to the 90s slogan “You wouldn’t download a car” by effectively saying “yes I would, and I intend to.” I would say their mission is also eutopian in nature, but less focused on making our physical world more sustainable, but instead on the idea that the world would be more diverse and interesting if we put everything, and I mean EVERYTHING into the public domain. I’m not 100% sure I agree, but I definitively respect the ethos and the dedication to it. I guess what I’m saying is check it out, here them out, they’re not harmful or abusive. They’re filled with convictions, and I’d probably enjoy hanging out with them
Thanks, that was really informative. Beehaw sounds more like my kind of thing, as my Mastodon instances (the ones I’m in, not that I own them) are also small, chill places that prioritise user wellbeing over popularity. I’ll need to look into migration, or just directly opening a new account, as this one isn’t that long lived. Thanks again
Also it looks like lemmy.world (your home instance) has elected to defederate from exploding heads. They’re becoming an interesting sociological study as I noticed a pattern early on of them having a lot of chud-y types, but it seems like the admin staff at lemmy.world is not interested in being an instance that tolerates that kind of behavior (which I realize now, looking at the code of conduct on mastodon.world, should have been expected eventually to become the norm). This gives me high hopes for Beehaw and lemmy.world being refederated with eachother sooner rather than later. Lemmy.world is probably still fighting an uphill battle with how rudimentary moderation tools are on this platform, but it warms my soul to see
Oh no! Anyway. Welcome to the internet. Not everyone is going to be nice.
No, but why should they be tolerated?
You are tolerated and you are the same as other people.
you know you can just block them yourself right? you don’t have to force your opinion on everyone. if most people block them they will become just as isolated as if they were defederated anyways.
Why give them a platform and an audience to begin with? They’re the scum of the earth. Fuck them.
because the power is in your hands? by ignoring them you are removing their influence. you don’t pick up your baby every time it starts crying because then they will just start crying to get your attention.
Specifically, any fascist group is a conspiracy to commit murder. As such, there is no “free speech” reason to tolerate fascist organizing.
Edited to add: Discussion of fascist views is a different matter. I specifically mean people using your stuff to organize fascist groups or activities. If they’re trying to rally people into a group that wants to murder Jews or LGBT+ or socialists or liberals, then they’re not just discussing views — they’re conspiring crimes, and you don’t have any good reason to support them under “free speech” principles. Even the libertarians object to “force and fraud”.
So, can we extend that to any communist group as well then?
no, conspiracy to commit murder is not an inherent aspect of communist ideology in the same way that it is integral to fascism
How’s that? Every time I’ve pressed a communist about how they will deal with non conformity should their revolution succeed, they eventually agree that the plan is to kill them.
To be fair, if you don’t conform with the laws in a liberal-democracy, you might eventually get killed too. Ideas like “property lines” and “don’t drive on the wrong side of the road” are ultimately backed up by force.
If you go around driving on the left side of the highway in a country where the law says to drive on the right, eventually someone’s gonna come stop you and you’re lucky if that is somehow peaceful.
But that’s a far cry from organizing a movement around “that ethnic group there, that sexual minority over there, and those miscegenators over there, must be exterminated for the purity of our nation”.
“that ethnic group there, that sexual minority over there, and those miscegenators over there, must be exterminated for the purity of our nation”.
I think that’s just tribalism, not fascism. Merriam-webster defines fascism as:
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
You need to tick all the boxes to qualify.
because regardless or anecdotes, a communist ideal does not by definition necessitate a conspiracy to commit murder
even if not a single pacifist communist existed, and they do, itd still be totally possible to be both a pacifist and a communist
in contrast, violence is a fundamental part of what makes fascism fascism. a fascist party will never be pacifistic, because it would no longer be fascist
Come back down to the real world. People don’t want communism unless you force them into it under the barrel of a gun. Communism means my individual wants, needs, and property is decided by the will of the people, which in reality translates to the will of a few dozen elite Party members at the top of the scheme. I’m not an ant in a colony.
As someone whose family has been massacred by Stalin’s repressions while every single possession was stolen, I’m going to go ahead and not join your cult. Thanks. I bet if it happened again, you’d be cheering in support.
Indeed we should. To tired of reading the famous “eat the rich” speech. If you want to eat people, you are just a cannibal
Worked for Hitler.
/s
this is the internet not the holocaust.
Don’t give a shit, fuck nazis
Yeah, but I gotta wonder why I should be a part of a community that federates with a hive of block fodder.
I expect the moderators of communities to do sufficient policing of their community to make sure it follows the rules of the instance it is on and the rules of that community. If those rules permit something you disagree with (or don’t permit something you do want to see) the power is in your hands as a user to not participate or even see that community. The only way for a user to guarantee they won’t interact with someone from instance X (whether that is exploding-heads or lemmygrad or whatever you don’t like) is to only interact with communities on instances that have them defederated. There are places you can get a more curated and aggressively moderated experience, and have been recommending places such as beehaw to anyone looking for that.
I will take action against:
- Local users harassing someone
- Local users breaking local rules
- Local users repeatedly breaking remote rules
- Local communities that break local instance rules
- Remote users harassing local users
- Remote users repeatedly breaking local rules
- Remote instances that repeatedly allow its users to break local rules
- Remote instances that repeatedly allow its users to harass my users
The first rule on my instance is a catch-all “Be welcoming”, that will be wielded to aggressively remove far more than just “racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia”.
As an admin I don’t have the time or desire to police:
- Local users interacting on remote communities, so long as they are following remote rules
- Remote communities
- Remote users interacting with remote users/communities
I do hope for a way to better curate (or just disable for now) the “All” feed, at the very least for anyone who isn’t logged in. Given the general rules above that feed may include disagreeable posts, and is not a good representation of my instance or the type of community most users there will experience.
Making the basic rules like Active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia should be a no brauner. Pls add this rule
should be a no brauner
German “braun” = brown => nazi
What a beautiful typo.
Federation is broken, if you’re not on lemmy.world you’re not in the real Lemmy
So stop doing a mastodon Lemmy. Shit’s getting too complicated. If it matters which instance you join, that means you have to choose which one, that means you have to read each instance manifesto for the right fit. That means 99% of new users already realized this isn’t going to work out and returned to Reddit
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I think I am missing something here, can someone explain a few terms for me by chance?
What the hell does Fediverse mean? What the hell does Federated mean? What the hell does Defederated mean?
Let’s start with federation. Federation is a concept where in two socially enabled sites can send eachother updates about hosted content so that users of one site can see content from the other without leaving their preferred site. Defederation is when a site elects to no longer send or receive updates to another site. The fediverse is a vast topology of many sites that use a shared protocol to federate with eachother
So just to clarify, as I migrated from the other website I refuse to mention, I assume that site is not Federated, and Lemmy is? And Exploding***-Heads is another instance?
Reddit is indeed not a federation capable platform. It is purely centralized. Lemmy and Kbin are both part of the Fediverse using the ActivityPub protocol, along with other social media platforms such as (but not limited to) mastodon, pelorma, calckey, misskey, and pixelfed. Exploding-Heads is, indeed, an instance separate from the instance you’re on (lemmy.ml) or the one I’m on (slrpnk.net)
Thanks for the response. I just have more questions now >.<
Am I able to login to any of these instances with the same account? I.e. this skiba account I am on?
If they are not the “same” then why are you able to view Lemmy.ml from the instance of Slrpnk.net?
Sorry for asking for an ELI5 but my curiosity lingers
Sure! So, you cannot log in to any server using the same identity. For better and for worse, your identity is attached to a server (or more accurately, a server is attached to your identity) so your login will only work with one server. As far as how we can both see each other’s stuff, that answer likes within the ActivityPub specification. I haven’t read fully into the spec, but the executive summary is that your server just displays information it has cached, and that other servers send it information to cache.
When you look at any feed, comment section, or thread, you are looking at an aggregated presentation of content from many servers that your server sends and receives messages to. As such, your feed is a reflection of both the content you have expressed an interest in by subscribing to it or clicking into it, but also the moderation style of the admin of the instance attached to your identity. As such, it is important to distinguish that it is factually inaccurate to say that which server you join when you sign up doesn’t matter.
Finding a server that is run the way you would want a server to be run will not be an instant process. The first step is to read the documents that an instance you’ve found has socialized. Do the rules sound good? The second step is to look at the local feed on that instance. Are you interested in the posts? Do any of them raise red flags? The third step is to sign up for the instance and try it out. Does it feel good to be there?
Obviously, since we’re already having this conversation, you’ve signed up for lemmy.ml. No matter how rigorous your vetting process, you still did enough to say you were interested in what was going on there, even if you didn’t fully understand it. Imagine if someone’s first impression of Lemmy was slrpnk.net. It would look like there isn’t that much activity, and all of it is about ecology and climate change. Meanwhile, you went to lemmy.ml and didn’t notice anything off. Done. That was a step.
So now. That final step after you’ve signed up for an instance where you decide if you’re going to stick around. This is where you pay attention to if there are consistent moderation issues with the instance you are on. To describe my personal experience, slrpnk.net is the third instance I’ve signed up for. The first instance I signed up for was on beehaw.org, and that remains my primary account. But about 3 weeks ago, Beehaw decided to defederate from a pair of large instances because they didn’t have the capacity to moderate the onslaught of content coming from those instances. I was subscribed to a few communities on those instances. I had been enjoying content coming from them. Most of the users weren’t problematic. So, I figured I’d set up a secondary account on another instance to view the content I was missing out on. I would just do my own blocking of content I would rather not see, since Lemmy and KBin provide better blocking tools than Reddit ever did.
That secondary account quickly ran into problems as the moderators from that instance let too much slide, by far. This is where the other part of deciding if you want to stay on an instance comes into play. I noticed in my time on that secondary instance a pattern of liking what people from slrpnk.net had to say about things (as well as disliking what people from exploding-heads had to say). I decided I wanted to be on an instance where I wasn’t constantly blocking content from one instance because it was already defederated. When I saw slrpnk.net was in fact defederated from exploding-heads, I knew it was a good landing place since I already felt a spirit of agreement with their userbase, so I joined.
I hope that clears things up. As much as possible, I want to reduce how intimidating all of this can seem. I’ve been interested in the fediverse for a long time. It’s only recently really gotten a way to interact with it that both has enough people on it to seem worthwhile AND matches the ways I like interacting with the internet (on forums). I realize it can look a little odd for someone with young accounts (@Cube6392@beehaw.org, @Quill7513@slrpnk.net , and @Quill7513@sh.itjust.works are all me) to speak at length about these topics. I first signed up for a mastodon instance in 2016, and I had many of the same questions and confusion you did. I want to give people a more comfortable on ramp than I had.
Does all of that help?
Uhhhhhhh, absolutely! This is a massive reply and I am appreciative of that. I am sure that many other people reading are also sort of in the same mindset or (where the hell am I really?). I still am a tad confused as to why this account will not work on other instances, but I guess you do explain why here in this response.
Appreciate the time and effort :)
The only instance I’d ever recommend my friends to join is beehaw.org and that’s why I love it. Otherwise it’s the wild Wild West.
How about you curate your own filters and take care of your own filter-bubble (or echo-chamber for that matter)? The beauty of the Fediverse is that there’s no central instance to censor or dictate the course.
Start your own instance if you dislike the open marketplace of opinions.
To everyone downvoting this because you can’t stand your opinion being challenged:
I invite you to a discussion here.
PD: I am here in the Fediverse because I like to challenge other opinions as much as being challenged, this is how we, how humanity grows, learns and evolves. I’m not here to live in a safe space/echo-chamber and being reassured, this would be boring and mind-numbing.
Get out there, learn new things, test your opinions, ideals and biases against others and see how they evolve.
The problem is that the articles from exploring heads take an average of two sentences to reach an obvious and malicious lie. There is no room for discussion under those circumstances.
For those who don’t respect the authority of conservatives as the arbiters of reality, they have no purpose except as a glimpse into the abyss. It’s like having your stream of memes interrupted every few pages by a graphic crime scene photo, only with the dread that comes with knowing that the criminal has a wide support base.
OK but why ask for curated blocking (defederation, censorship) when you can decide what you want to see? Emails as protocol works despite the spam.
Because we can’t block an entire instance as users. We have to do it piecemeal, which is a major pain in the ass when every c/ on there is bloated shit.
Once lemmy ships that as a function, defederation isn’t necessary for this kind of situation.
And, there’s also the factor that it’s easier for people who want to deal with their shit to intentionally find it than it is for everyone else to block it.
Because the same legion of full-time Eric Cartman impersonators smears the same hateful dogshit over normal comment threads. This is a lot more effective than individually banning every member of the inevitable asshat brigade. There’s room for instances that federate with them, but it probably shouldn’t be the default.
Fucking christian fundamentalists fascists. They are a fucking cancer in every social media platform.
The worst thing it’s they are being funded by the conservative elite nations to speak fascist hate all over the internet.
It’s super effective! Humanity hurt itself in its confusion!
A tale as old as time
