His win is a direct result of the Supreme Court’s decision in a pivotal LGBTQ+ rights case.
Yeah, fair. That’s not the problem.
The problem comes when they think everyone else is required to do business with them.
“Rules for thee and not for me” and all that.
Hey homophobic waiter, can you please serve this gay couple some food? Please don’t spit too much on it.
I think that discrimination, any discrimination, is bad and should over time be eradicated with education. But just trying to make the point here… You can’t let businesses discriminate, but you also can’t force individual persons to go against their beliefs -as retarded as those beliefs might be- and expect good results at the end. Did this couple really expect nice pictures?
In this case, the business IS the individual, and you can punish the business I guess, but this is something that in the practical real world ends with a homophobic waiter staying quiet and instead just spitting all over the food he’s about to serve to you.
I guess I’d rather know someone’s opinions before dealing with them.
Sigh. US politics really wants me to become an anarchist.
As one of the LGBT, I’m fine with this. I want the ability to refuse work to the Religious and Republicans—and I have done so for decades. The difference is, I don’t tell them why. I just say I’m busy. Because even though I want them to burn in a fiery hell, I’m not an asshole.
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Religion should arguably not be a protected class either.
“My religion forces me to vote republican.”
“My religion forces me to cut up baby dicks.”
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This is the way.
Some asshole lawyer will eventually win the argument that religiosity and conservatism are commutative.
And tbh, they’ll be right.
Sure, just look at Trump supporters they are a cult, so maybe they can get a religious protection.
Nope. Conservatism is a political affiliation. Will always be before the eyes of the U.S. law*
*Unless the fucking SCOTUS fucks things up again.
You should just assume the Supreme Court follows Clavinball and Whose Line is it Anyway rules at this point.
Cool but where do you draw the line? If a taxi driver refuses to drive you is it still fine? What if a teacher refuses to teach your children? Or if a doctor refuses to treat you?
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wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
Who was denied or sought a service here?
It’s a bit stunning how many people just don’t get this. The laws say you can’t discriminate people based on their race, religion or sexuality for a reason. If you accept this behaviour you basically saying that discrimination is fine and legal. This means corporation can stop hiring LGBT people, businesses can stop serving them, private school can reject their kids. Legally it’s the same. This is not about one guy rejecting a customer. He could just say that he’s busy, no one will force him to work. This is about him saying that this is specifically because of their sexuality and and the courts trying to legalize discrimination. And some people claim that this entire case was made up on purpose: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/09/24/alliance-defending-freedom-wedding-lawsuit/
The fact that people don’t understand how this works is just stunning.
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I can tell you one thing: wedding photography is not where to draw the line.
Edit: come to think of it, you’re right, though. Businesses should serve all people, especially protected classes. Don’t want to deal with it? Don’t start a business.
Probably the teacher. I’d support law brought in that public service jobs i.e. medicine, education, government etc must serve all but surely that’s already law in the sense of discrimination?
But people offering a taxi ride, photography etc? They can tell you to fuck off for the simple reason of not liking your voice on the phone or the look of your face. Why does the world insist on this delusion of forced love and happiness? And it’s ironic as they are upset they can’t have access to X so want to upset the person providing X and force them to provide it to people they don’t want to?
Insanity.
The world is a mean place, always has been, always will be.
Do you think it’s a good world if someone, say, can’t use the nearest small grocery store or has a 50/50 chance that any given taxi will refuse to serve them, leaving them stranded for longer and regularly late as a result? All because maybe they look gay or trans or Muslim or whatever the right wing media is currently drumming up fear towards?
Your comment is about the perspective of the person providing the service, but what about the people being affected by the discrimination (who are often more vulnerable in the first place)? Do you not care about their experience? Their ability to experience the same quality of life as everyone else?
And sure, the world is a mean place, but why defend that? Why not try to make it at least a little bit better?
Yes
I guess if it’s contract work. In a teacher’s case all the kids pay for his service combined and he workdls for the school not the kids directly, I guess. And a taxi driver can refuse to drive you, and some of them have to people who act racists towards them or act like karens in a few videos I’ve seen.
Taxi? I mean, I guess? If I was a taxi driver and a bunch of people from the Westboro Baptist Church tried to get into my cab, I’d speed off for sure.
Teacher? Hmm. Well, they can try. But, humorously, it’s just like a “conservative” to deny a child an education. It’s all about the kids right? Trash.
Doctor? No. They are governed by rules that prevent that.
I think it depends if you are a contractor or an employee. A contractor like a cab driver or photographer sure they can refuse clients, but a teacher and Dr are both employees of a school district and insurance company who have a public image to uphold.
A contractor like a cab driver or photographer sure they can refuse clients
In certain cities cabbies are actually not allowed to refuse clients, particularly to avoid discrimination issues
Ok, so let’s hope that the supreme court agrees with you and draws the line at taxi drivers. Because today they let photographers discriminate you and tomorrow they can decide that the rules for doctors are unconstitutional.
Do you really want a doctor treat you who despises you? Can you still trust them to do their best?
The real problem lies deeper than this.
So where you live doctors just let people suffer/die if they don’t like them and it’s ok? You don’t have any oversight, expert panels, ethics boards, investigations? That’s wild.
You don’t think there’s a range between doing the bare minimum and giving your best? I don’t say they let you die, or send you away. I said I wouldn’t be sure they treat me with the same effort they treat someone they like (or at least don’t dislike).
I think you watch to much TV. That’s not how medicine works. How do you imagine it? I go to a doctor with migraine and he starts thinking real hard what could be the cause? And if he ‘despises’ me he just doesn’t think as hard?
There are procedures doctors have to follow. If they fail to follow the procedures it’s malpractice. The procedures are the same for all doctors. There’s no ‘look, I did the bare minimum, you can’t punish me’. Either you did what was required or you didn’t. Each time a doctor would mistreat someone on purpose because he ‘despises’ them they would open themselves for investigation and a court case. That doesn’t mean there are no shitty doctor making mistakes, they would just have to be really dumb to do it in purpose.
I understand your fear. But my opinion isn’t going to impact that crooked group. It’s not like I voted for them. Whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen regardless of what you or I do. We’re all fucked. I may as well be allowed to legally discriminate against the people who can legally discriminate against me. 🤷♂️
I don’t know what the person you’re replying to does for work, but I feel like what their work is really makes a big difference. Teachers don’t (or shouldn’t) teach kids any differently based on orientation, political ideology, etc., other than perhaps excusing them from work that goes against their beliefs (for example celebrating a holiday they take objection to). The teacher isn’t required to “go against their beliefs” and do something they disagree with, only to keep their mouth shut about any disagreements they may have with a student’s lifestyle. A teacher should not be able to refuse to teach anyone because they are not being asked to do a special job catering to any particular student. If they disagree with the curriculum, I would guess they just shouldn’t be a teacher then (as in, if you’re a high school science teacher you may be required to teach evolution).
Similarly with a doctor, they should not be able to say “I refuse to treat you because you’re gay/religious/political.” Everyone gets the same medical care. The only exception I can think of is transgender medical care, but if they don’t want to do that they can just not go into that field.
Anything that involves creating is a little different. A wedding photographer would be more actively participating in a gay wedding. Or a Christian wedding, etc. If they feel really uncomfortable with that, they shouldn’t have to. That doesn’t change my opinion that they’re closed-minded and bigoted, and it doesn’t mean people can’t leave them bad reviews stating as much. Plus, these services are not basic rights, whereas healthcare and education are basic rights.
There’s been lots of recent stories of teachers refusing the call kids by their preferred pronouns, for one. But also, I think you’re trying to be more rational than these conservatives are. They don’t need there to be a difference in how they work with someone to refuse to do it. Some will literally claim it’s against their religion to be involved with an LGBT person at all.
Stuff like education is an obvious basic right, yeah, but there’s so much fuzziness. Should the only store in walking distance be able to refuse to serve you? Especially in small towns where there might only be a single business providing a service, they can easily make the area effectively an unlivable area for whichever group is the current focus of conservatives.
Plus there’s the good ol’ paradox of intolerance. By just allowing people to discriminate, it spreads. When it’s acceptable for one business to discriminate, it’s more likely others are going to adopt the same stance. More people will be taught their intolerance. It’s basically a social illness. Much like a real illness, that needs to be isolated and prevented from spreading.
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I don’t see a point in making people angry. I just don’t want to be around them or talk to them or help them make money 🤷♂️ I’m sorry my take on hating people who hate me disturbs you. Maybe stop hating lol
i am kind of torn on this.
on the one hand I think it’s important that you can refuse to work with people you don’t like for whatever reason.
On the other hand, this is an absolutely childish and stupid reason to not work with someone.
wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
Who was hiring him?
You can refuse for any reason - except those involving discrimination against a protected class. Sexual orientation is supposed to be a protected class. You can still discriminate, you just have to give another/no reason and make sure it doesn’t look like you’re doing it for a prohibited reason.
If I wanted to say that no people with glasses were allowed to shop in my store, that would be allowed. If I wanted to say that no pregnant women could shop in my store, that wouldn’t be allowed. If it was a pregnant woman wearing glasses, I could claim the first reason, but then, if I was found to be allowing other people with glasses to shop, my reasoning would be challenged and I would have to demonstrate that I wasn’t discriminating because of pregnancy.
At least, this is how discrimination laws are supposed to work.
It turns out that anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak and not fully defined, allowing bullshit like this to seep out of judge’s mouths and through the cracks. The Equal Protections Clause of the 14th Amendment only grants equality under law, so it only really affects governments. The Civil Rights Act extends this out to private employment under Title VII, but not much further.
What the 303 Creative v. Elenis ruling (the Supreme Court ruling that led to the settlement here) does, in theory, is allow any private person the right to discriminate against any protected class (eg pregnancy, disability, and all the others) so long as the person they’re discriminating against isn’t an employee. This is clearly bullshit, and I’m sure if people started discriminating against Christians they’d be up in arms.
Thankfully, this settlement does not in any way strengthen this ruling, it only gives one asshole permission by one state - there is no ruling here, just an out of court settlement, thus it does not extend to anyone else. In particular, the state probably thought that because there was no injured party actually being discriminated against there wasn’t much point wasting time and money litigating.
Obligatory IANAL.
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Your comment should be an article. Excellent clarifications.
Thanks. I think my other comment made soon after gave a bit better detail on the laws:
I think the issue lies in the different measures of protected class, and the layers of law between State and Federal. US law is needlessly complicated and full of holes.
The Civil Rights Act provides protections for employees against discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin under Title VII. Title II covers inter-state commerce and protects against discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin - but not sex.
Beyond this, states are supposed to make their own laws. However, the Supreme Court decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis undermines this, as the court ruled that the 1st Amendment and free speech overrules any discrimination law the state makes. Thus, provided you avoid Title II by only doing business within the state, it would be possible to argue that you can discriminate against any protected classes, so long as that class isn’t protected by other Federal legislation (eg the Americans with Disabilities Act provides extensive coverage for those with disabilities).
Not liking someone because they smoke isn’t the same as not liking someone for who they are.
It feels…weird to me. Like refusing to work with someone at your job because they like coffee. Or dislike tigers.
Or more accurately, they were born with blue eyes and you just hate people with blue eyes. And you can’t stand them so much that you take your case against blue-eyed folk to the highest court of the land just to ensure you never have to work with them or take them as clients at your IT company. Sometimes it makes me wonder how we ever even got here, lol.
I’m pretty sure the photographer in question got all his court fees paid for by PACs or think tanks.
What’s there to be torn on?
You can’t honor people’s rights just when they suit your agenda. What would happen if you refused to work with someone and other people thought it was ‘absolutely childish and stupid’?
So you think I should be able to start job interviews by asking people if they’ve ever voted Republican? Because we absolutely employ LGBT people, so I have a legitimate interest in protecting them from bigots.
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Well, turned out it’s perfectly OK to start your interview by stating your allegiance to a christian god, so it’s only fair.
At this point? I think it’s not unreasonable. Given the state of the Republican party right now, you don’t vote for them for their economical policy or whatever they pretended to care about decades ago. They only concern about culture war bullshit, and by voting for them you agree with it, and that includes unwavering hate for LGBT people.
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Even more than the outright bigotry, what concerns me most is this growing trend of conservative ideology that allows for lawsuits without cause. You shouldn’t be able to sue unless you are harmed. That’s the way its supposed to work. Yet these conservative courts have been turning that concept entirely on its head lately.
Um that’s not true at all. You are absolutely allowed to challenge the precedence of laws even if you have been yet to be directly affected.
That’s something completely different. You can tell by your use of the word “yet”.
How is that “completely different”
Why did you use the word “yet”?
because you are allowed to challenge laws even if they have yet to affect your life
Again, why are you using the word yet? Think about it. When you have you’ll understand the difference.
? All I’m saying is that immediate harm is not required for a lawsuit. I know you think you’re being smart but you’re overanalyzing what I said for no reason.
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I think you might need to read my comment again as you wildly misinterpreted it.
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Not even in the slightest. That’s just simply not how laws work.
I think you’re not appreciating the difference between a criminal violation and a civil tort. In civil law plaintiffs are required to claim damages. This is a means to ensure the system isn’t full of pointless petty lawsuits.
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No one should be forced to participate in something they disagree with. Whenever I’m trying to figure out if denial of service is reasonable, I imagine it with nazis. For example wedding cakes. If a gay couple goes to a bakery for a wedding cake, they should absolutely be able to purchase a standard wedding cake, and it’s none of the baker’s business what they use it for. But the baker should not be forced to decorate in a specifically gay way (like a topper with a pair of men). If a gross couple wants to have a nazi wedding, they should absolutely be able to purchase a standard wedding cake, and it’s none of the baker’s business what they use it for. But the baker should not be forced to pipe a swastika on it.
If it’s reasonable for a photographer to feel uncomfortable working a nazi wedding, it’s reasonable for one to feel uncomfortable working a gay wedding.
Obviously there’s an enormous difference between being gay and being a nazi. I’m not equating those things. I’m equating the feeling of repulsion and discomfort of the one providing the service.
You’re also equating the cause of the feeling of repulsion.
You’re repulsed by Nazis because Nazis are evil.
Why are you repulsed by gay people? Hate. Yes, even if disguised behind “religious reasons.”
Regardless, I’m not saying that we must force the photographer to “work while being repulsed” (and I wouldn’t want anyone on my wedding day that I know is repulsed by it anyway, but I digress.) I’m saying that we must continue peeling off that core of a hateful onion that is religion and bigotry until nothing is left.
And having said that: don’t want to deal with “the gays”? Don’t start a business in a place where gay people are protected. I’d say this ruling is in the wrong.
Also, I believe the photographer should be able to reject a job due to its type of content. Hear me out. Gay wedding? Yes. Gay wedding with a dildo theme? Nah. Straight wedding? Yes. Straight wedding with a cat killing theme? Nah.
I’m not sure if you’re using the general “you” or the specific “you” so I just want to clarify that I am bisexual and not at all repulsed by LGBT people.
You make a good argument in your last paragraph. Photography is a more difficult situation to judge than the cake thing, but I feel like the photographer is often such an integral part of the wedding, that it’s more of a participatory service, and my argument is about not making people participate in something they find unsavory.
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That’s literally what discrimination laws are for. You can’t officially hate people on the basis of a protected category (race, sexuality, etc…). You can officially hate Nazis, you can’t officially hate gays.
The gays/nazis comparison was ridiculous because it ignores this key distinction: we, as a people, have decided it’s not OK to hate (in so far as it leads to discrimination) people for certain innate reasons.
Does it matter if they think it’s evil, though? What if they thought that all gingers must be eliminated because they’re evil?
It’s still hate.
So, if they’re not open to being educated, then fuck them.
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The ruling is absolutely not wrong.
You can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do. Full stop. Whether they don’t want to do it for good, bad, racist, homophobic etc reasons, is irrelevant.
No matter how much you support peace, love and happiness, you can’t start telling others what they can and can’t do. You have the right to refuse service for whatever reason.
You can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do. Full stop.
If you are a business serving the public, yes you the fuck can.
Whether they don’t want to do it for good, bad, racist, homophobic etc reasons, is irrelevant.
We had an entire Civil Rights Act about it. It prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.
Read a fucking book.
Not we, you Yankee dog
how many years ago did people make this argument to refuse to serve black people?
Genetics are understood to account up to 40% of gay men’s sexual identities. Why should we allow businesses to make exceptions on a potentially genetic basis?
Those aren’t the same situations. You’re allowed to discriminate against Nazis or people who own a ficus, but not gays. It’s not an arbitrary line, it’s a legally well defined distinction.
In both cases you don’t want to offer those people a service because of hatred. You’re allowed to hate people and discriminate against them for a variety of reasons. As a society we’ve legally decided that it’s not acceptable to hate (insofar as it leads to discrimination) for many reasons innate to a person (race, religion, sexual orientation, etc…). That’s the line.
I’m not talking about what the law allows. I’m talking about what I think the law should allow. Laws are written by people after discussing what they think should be allowed, they are not immutable facts of nature.
As you can see in my other responses below, I think the line should be drawn between businesses being required to provide the same products and services to everyone, but not requiring the provider to engage in participatory behavior.
And thankfully for pretty much all minorities, this law represents sounds ethical principles and the desires of the general population, and not your desires to treat gays and blacks the same as Nazis as long as you hate them enough.
Lmaooooo you’re comparing two dudes kissing to a genocidal, white supremacist disctatorship. Get real.
Rhetoric must not be one of your strengths.
He’s comparing people that most of us wouldn’t want to work with (Nazis) with people this photographer doesn’t want to work with.
Stay in school.
I’m pretty sure you choose to be a hateful spiteful Nazi. You don’t choose to be gay. There’s a HUGE difference. It is a bad faith argument to equate holding hateful views and opinions to being born different. With that reasoning, the feeling of discomfort when an owner sees a black person or an Asian person is acceptable grounds to deny services to them.
I didnt equate hateful opinions to being born different. In my example, the business is not allowed to discriminate against gay people by denying them the same products and services that they provide to straight people, anymore than they could discriminate against people of color by denying them the same products and services they provide to white people. My scenario is about forcing businesses to actively participate in * behaviors* they find deplorable.
I would also say if the bakery won’t put a gay topper on a cake, they can’t put a specifically straight topper on either.
So what you’re advocating is for everyone to get the same cake for all occasions and decorate it as they can in private? A gay couple should never be able to buy a cake with a topper, just a cake in public? Hide their shameful lifestyles? A boy shouldn’t be able to buy a strawberry pink cake because that would be unnatural
anymore than they could discriminate against people of color by denying them the same products and services they provide to white people
That just never seems to work out right, judging by historical evidence, does it? Wouldn’t it help if there were… Laws to protect from that?
I would also say if the bakery won’t put a gay topper on a cake, they can’t put a specifically straight topper on either.
How would that ever be enforced?
The point is: if you find proving a service to a gay person as deplorable as someone advocating for racial superiority or genocide, you should be forced to rethink your line of business
You have taken my comments and turned them into an extreme that they do not support.
Saying individual retailers should have the right not to sell a topper is not the same as saying no retailers should sell toppers.
Saying an individual service provider should not have to participate in an activity is not remotely saying anyone should have to hide themselves from public.
If the bakery sells pink cakes, by the actual argument I made, a boy should be able to buy the cake the same as any other customer. I do not appreciate you attributing to me arguments that not only did I not make, but are the exact opposite of what I said.
Edit: stray letter.
I guarantee you that this guy has seen a few up close.
2017 called they want their 1st world problem back
I am going to let Bob Updegrove of Virginia know what I think of him as a person.
Show me someone saying “This is fine”, and I’ll show you someone who has the privilege to not fear whether they’re going to be blocked out of society for the crime of…existing. This is only the first step to “All businesses, including businesses required for life, can discriminate against LGBTQ+ individuals”. Y’all are unhinged.
Obligatory:
Does this in return mean that LGBTQ+ couples win the right to discriminate against christian photographers?
I disagree with him, and I think he’s bigoted. But I don’t think anyone has the right to his labor and that he should be legally forced to photograph things that he doesn’t want to photograph. And it’s not like photography is a business that anyone can corner the market of in a small town or anything like that, all you need is a camera. It’s the most common side hustle I see people try.
This potentially opened the floodgates for discrimination. Unless this is specifically only for for “hired” or “contract” If not…. Coming soon to stores in the south near you
“NO F****TS ALLOWED”
“TRA***ES NOT WELCOME”
To say that anyone can be a photographer belittles the skill associated with a professional photographer. That’s akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there’s a qualitative difference.
That aside, would there be any sign that the photographer could put on their door that would be illegal? No Blacks, No Jews, No Women, etc… If not, play that to the logical extreme; What if all photographers in town had the same sign? What services are appropriate to deny in entirety to a specific class of people.
Oh boy, someone feels called out.
That’s akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there’s a qualitative difference.
Yes anyone with a camera can be a photographer just like anyone with a paintbrush can be a painter. Just because it takes skill to be good at them doesn’t mean the unskilled are just babies with fisherprice cameras pretending.
While I agree about a photographer not having to photograph things they don’t want to, as someone else said, where do you put that line in the sand?
If the private business of a photographer can deny their services, can the private business of a hospital deny their services for those same reasons?
The problem is it’s a hard discussion to have as on the one hand you want private businesses to be able to give bigoted folks the boot, but then private businesses of bigots can then throw you out all the same. Advocating for the first does mean unintentionally advocating for the latter.
The bigger problem is why are there private hospitals.
That’s a much easier answer. Money and
briberylobbying.
I don’t think he has the right to make his business known publicly if it isn’t available to the public-- all of it.
What if it’s purely a subject matter question? Surely you wouldn’t be OK with a wedding photographer being forced to stay around for some spicier honeymoon pictures if they didn’t want to photograph adult activity…
They shouldn’t be blocked from being a photographer just because they’re unwilling to photograph ALL subjects. That’s fucking stupid.
Unfortunately this is a strawman argument. The subject in question is a wedding. It shouldn’t matter what sexuality or race the people are.
There’s a difference between filming/photography of pornography vs a wedding. Don’t be disingenuous suggesting that the mere act of being gay equates the same to pornography.
photographer being forced to stay around for some spicier honeymoon pictures
probably shouldn’t compare a gay wedding to being forced to take sexual photos
What a dumb take. There are plenty of businesses that advertise to the public but are not open to serving the public.
Why shouldn’t he be forced to photograph things he doesn’t want to photograph? If he just photographed things he wanted to, it would be a hobby. He’s not hanging around weddings taking photos for fun. He’s being paid to do a job, and the job is the same whether it is two men, two women, or one of each.
Apply the same logic to someone who didn’t want to photograph Asian people. “Hey, I know you’re in love, but I don’t condone your marriage because my God says Asian people shouldn’t get married. Sorry.”
It’s not that he should be forced to work for people he hates. It’s that he should not be allowed to be in the business at all if he wants to discriminate against his clients.
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I agree with that last point. You can’t be required to photograph crimes, and I’ll take it a step further and say you don’t have to offer your services to everyone. A wedding photographer doesn’t have to do proms, and a baker doesn’t have to make cookies. But if you photograph weddings and you bake wedding cakes, you can and should be prohibited from discriminating against clients based on your religion.
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Whether you see it or not, your opinion is carving out a way for legal bigotry when done by a christian. Of course an atheist refusing to serve this asshole bigot would open up the door for a religious discrimination case against the atheist because bigots want nothing more than to divide society. We have no obligation to defend a bigot’s rights they are actively taking those same rights away from others.
And how do you differentiate between this and say, a shop, or a doctor? Do LGBT people not “have the right to the labour” of those services?
I disagree with that framing entirely. But I’m curious to know how you would differentiate.
Not saying this is a perfect analogy, but consider housing. If you are renting or selling real estate, you can not discriminate based on protected classes. However, if you are renting a room with shared spaces, you can deny applicants for any reason.
One is and artistic and expressive occupation. Stitching up a gay person wouldn’t be perceived as a form of statement. But being required to produce work in the traditional style of a wedding photographer could be perceived as issuing a statement in support of the event.
If you sold signs, you shouldn’t be able to decline someone a blank sign just because they are LGBT. But you shouldn’t be required to design one that carried a pro LGBT (or any other kind) of message.
I see where you are going with that, and I follow. But what about when we get into healthcare that can be perceived as queer-specific?
Say, when a doctor refuses to do proper STD screenings for a gay man, refuses to prescribe PrEP or PEP, or refuses to authorize checks on hormone levels?
All taken from experiences me and my friends have had, by the way.
I wouldn’t consider screenings or prescribing countermeasures to people who suspect exposure to medical threats particularly artistic or expressive. All those seem like pretty normal things for any sexually active adult to ask for regardless of sexuality.
Additionally those should be confidential so I don’t see them as a form of compelled speech.
I think the difference comes down to creative outlets. Just like with the “create a website for same-sex weddings”. I also feel a photographer should be able to deny a Trump themed wedding or cake. But if it’s a general service or product offered to everyone, you shouldn’t be able to deny a person just for being gay or black or anything protected. I don’t know if I’m elaborating my thoughts about it well but do you get where I’m coming from?
A wedding photographer offers their services to everyone having weddings. If that photographer refuses to photograph same-sex weddings, is that not the same as denying service to someone over their sexuality?
You make a good point and I thought the same thing after I made my initial comments. Another one I thought about was what if a person truly strongly believed in segregation, even maybe it being a part of their religion. Does that mean it’s ok for them to deny black people? That makes me deeply uncomfortable to put it lightly; I don’t think that is justifiable.
At the same time, there is something very personal about creative pursuits. Graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it. And this is something that is custom made for each customer. If the artist isn’t interested, and even is morally opposed to performing the work, even if they were legally required to do it, is it going to be their best work? Can they be penalized for deliberately doing a terrible job? I don’t know
I think this issue is why we have protected classes and why sexual orientation/preference/gender should be one.
When you say “graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it” the implication is that they can reject it for any reason which is not strictly true.
“I don’t feel like it” is a perfectly valid reason.
“I don’t like Black people” is not.
A photographer can choose not to do a job because they don’t feel like it, but not because it’s for a Black person or a Jewish person.
The issue here that is being overlooked in a lot of the discussion (but definitely is not being overlooked by the Supreme Court) is that LGBTQ people are not a protected class. Every time one of these cases pans out it sets another precedent that will be used to keep it that way.
It’s not the same as being forced to photograph a Trump rally or campaign photos. A far more apt comparison imo is race. Most people would agree that a business (any business) should not be able to exclude someone based on their race.
The United States has long held that creative work, art basically, is a form of Speech and protected under the 1st Amendment. This means that compelling art is the same compelling speech and boy howdy are there a bunch of laws around that, laws that society really needs to have.
So it’s a collision between rights:
On the one side we have the Photographer and their Constitutional Claims to not be compelled to create art (speak) and their right to not do something that is against their religion.
On the other side we have a LGBTQ person and their Constitutional Claim to not be denied services as a member of a protected class.
We currently draw the line by protecting the right to not be compelled to speak. In practical terms this means that buying a standard per-packaged Good or Service cannot be denied to people in a protected class. If a member of that protected class wants to purchase a Good or Service that would require creative input then the seller can refuse.
It becomes more clear if you create a scenario where someone in a protected class wants something distasteful. Let say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
They also need a wedding photographer but their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks.
So how does Society decide this mess? Do we force the Jewish bakery to make that cake because the buyers are minorities and gay? Do we force the photographer to take those pictures? Would YOU want to be forced to do either of those?
I sure as hell wouldn’t because what they want is deeply and personally offensive. This is why we protect against compelled speech.
I just hope those two guys are happy together regardless.
I wouldn’t do that either.
Take something you strongly disagree with. Let’s say a certain political party and their agenda. Republicans, Democrats, Nazis, a radical independent, doesn’t matter what, just one you disagree with.
You’ve decided to provide a private service as an individual. Let’s say, event planning.
A political party approaches you to host their biggest rally yet. On enquiring, what it’s about, you find out it’s the one you disagree with.
Should you be made to? Are you denying rights by declining your services to them, or are you exercising your own by choosing to stand by your beliefs?
Your beliefs will of course outrage some people that have opposing ones, but they are yours and they should be protected no matter what they are or how wild or somber they are. It is only when you actively start harming people or directly denying human rights is when it becomes an issue… But you host events, you don’t control water, shelter, justice, health, or food to societies. So unless that’s somehow happening—and boy would that have been a regulatory fuck up—you have the freedom to not host events for things that go against what you believe, and we protect that even if people disagree with them.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own. That’s called hypocrisy and double standards. We respect this by disagreeing with someone’s beliefs, but we don’t strip them from people and force our own on them, just because we disagree.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own.
In the US, the civil rights legislation forces racists to serve black people and that is great.
You’re right, but that’s an unpopular take in this hive mind.
Lemmy folk can’t handle reality that contradicts their ideals.
This feels like it should be Libertarian 101. Thought the communities were left here, but apparently they just say that to feel good.
a hive mind isnt when people disagree with you honey
There is a fundamental difference between immutable traits, such as race, gender, sexuality, and physical ability, and political beliefs. So your comparison to “something you strongly disagree with” is not fitting analogy.
Your beliefs will of course outrage some people that have opposing ones, but they are yours and they should be protected no matter what they are or how wild or somber they are.
We aren’t talking about “beliefs”. We’re talking about actions. Discrimination is an action.
It is only when you actively start harming people or directly denying human rights is when it becomes an issue…
And denying people goods and services based on who they are is harming them. So it is an issue.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own.
We can and we do, all the time. That’s part of living in society.
The thing’s you say are very authoritarian. The disregard for individual thoughts and freedoms is honestly scary. You can’t even differentiate private venture with public service. I suspect you discriminate against others all of the time, but it’s fine since it’s coming from you and your side of things, never questioning if you’re the bad person or not.
It slowly gets worse and worse each time you type. That last part is just flat out disgusting to say.
The Handmaiden’s Tale didn’t get 8.4 on iMDB because people can’t wait for that future enough.
Nothing but baseless assumptions and accusations. Waste of time.
Heh. Thank you. My point and case for anti-libertarian rests on that response perfectly.
And I appreciate you taking your time to state you’re wasting your time. Best your words and outlook rest here than elsewhere. We’re trying to progress as a species so, in a way, this is unintentionally helping.
More baseless accusations, without addressing anything I said.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Let’s say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
For a wedding venue they’d like to have this excellent location and catering company.
They also need a wedding photographer and their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks. They plan to stop by Stak Studios tomorrow and talk to them about it.
And denying people goods and services based on who they are is harming them.
How are you feeling about your statement right now?
You’re confusing ideology with identity.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Which is equivalent to saying you want to bring back “whites only” or “no gays” signs and whatever else. No thanks.
And let’s be clear. We aren’t actually talking about getting “whatever” from “whomever.” We are talking about people who are members of a group (not by choice) having the right to expect the same treatment as others from a business open to the public.
On the other hand, you have stated, essentially, bigoted owners of businesses open to the public can deny business to anyone who holds this proverbial membership card you mention.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Never said it was.
The rest of your comment is similarly meaningless. You must have misunderstood me. The service would, and could, be denied because they are asking for a Nazi-themed service. Being a Nazi is a choice, not an immutable trait, nor a protected class.
Nowhere have I said that gay people shouldn’t be denied service for any reason, only that they shouldn’t be denied service because they’re gay.
How are you feeling about your statement right now?
Exactly the same as before you made your utterly irrelevant comment.
I’d say it’s the business model.
Not defending the practices or arguing in defense of bigotry, just offering an explanation.
If it’s a business model like a store where you come in and buy things with prices on them, that’s open to everyone equally.
If it’s a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it’s less “owner sells things” and more “clients contract owner for XYZ”, and at that point, I’d tend to agree that it’s a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.
At that point, both sides have the option to simply not agree and not enter into a contract, for any reason. Just because one may disagree with one party’s decision to not enter that agreement doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have that option.
What if it was a photographer who didn’t want to be hired to photograph a Trump rally, a pro-life protest, or something else they felt strongly against like a (peaceful, lawful) far right event?
I don’t think in those cases that a photographer should have no choice because the organizers are paying the money, so likewise, in this case, I don’t feel like it’s fair to force the photographer to cover an event they have a strong moral objection to, simply because that’s their business.
Again, I’m not arguing that I agree with the photographer or that their position isn’t bigoted, just offering a distinction.
So I agree with you, but food for thought as I was mulling this over: what about someone building a deck? I shouldn’t discriminate who I build a deck for based on color or orientationn because building that deck doesn’t expose me to anything I object to (I’m using “I” universally here - I’m queer positive and don’t build decks). But like if I’m a boudoir photographer who is squicked by queer sexuality I ought to be able to decline a shoot.
So I don’t know that the line is just a one on one service. That’s not quite there, but it’s close. I recognize the need to protect folks from being forced to witness or participate in things they object to, but I also recognize the need to protect minority groups from being excluded from the benefits of society.
I also think it would do people good to get over themselves and be exposed to things they find uncomfortable and grow as a person, but I recognize that isn’t anything that can be forced on someone.
Yeah I agree that it doesn’t seem to be a firm hard line, but maybe that’s a good thing. And honestly, to me it’s one of those things that, from a purely economic standpoint, it’s just opening up that opportunity to competitors.
So you don’t wanna photo gay weddings? That’s cool, someone else will.
I think your comment can be summed up more succinctly with “independent contractors have more discretion to choose their clients or projects than businesses that serve the public.” And I agree with you
But why
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For the same reason that I don’t believe gay couples should be legally forced to accept services from a MAGA photographer. A private contract in this situation is just that, a contract. Both parties have the power to set whatever terms and conditions that they want.
For example, imagine a black couple wanted a photographer for a family event and said something along the lines of “we’d like to support members of the black community by hiring an independent black photographer.” If a white photographer saw this and sued, everyone would (rightfully) react negatively to him trying to force a private party to break the conditions they set for their private contract.
But a MAGA supporter is not the same characteristic as being LGQTB. They are not equivalent. Some countries have protected classes which I think is best. Political affiliation is not protected. Sexual orientation is. A protected class is saying that infringing the freedoms of others based on these characteristics is a great threat to freedom. The country needs to explicitly state it won’t tolerate it, because it will erode the freedom far greater than not allowing it. You can discriminate against someone based on choices they make, but not on inherent characteristics they have.
Likewise saying you are hiring a black photographer isn’t the same as saying you’re not hiring a white photographer. The distinction is important. You’re not saying you exclude a person based on an inherent/protected characteristic. The exclusion can be inferred but it doesn’t actually mean the exclusion exists. You can say you will hire a black photographer does not mean you won’t consider or hire any other. But saying you will not hire a white photographer does concretely state your exclusion which shouldn’t be a factor in business in any free Democratic country.
I would think this is a choice that doesn’t have a right answer. All choices suck. You infringe on someone regardless of choice. But saying that I think the choice with least harm is choosing to have protected classes that can’t be infringed on vs allowing people to disallow people access to services based on these protected classes. I would prefer a person who feels they will infringe on those rights to not choose to be in the market offering services where they can discriminate based on sex, race, sexual orientation or other traits that should be protected. But if they feel they don’t want to serve plumbers or Democrats or movie producers all the power to them
Religion is a protected class.
I’m not saying I disagree with your position, but being a Trump supporter or anti-choice is a choice, whereas being LGBTQ isn’t, so the comparison isn’t of equal demographic descriptors.
I disagree with your appraisal but as an example that splits your uprights: let’s say the photographer in question is a member of a demographic that is or was persecuted in some way and those trying to hire them are members of the persecuting demographic.
A Ukrainian photographer being asked to cover a family event for a family of Russians. Even if nobody involved has anything to do with the war, the situation could very likely make the photographer uncomfortable, and I don’t think that most people would fault the photographer for passing on the opportunity.
A black photographer being asked to cover a wedding being held on the grounds of a former Southern plantation is another case where I feel that the photographer would be understandably uncomfortable and the photographer would be completely justified in declining.
Even something like, say, an artist who is the daughter of Filipino parents who were subjected to horrific treatment during the japanese occupation during ww2, and now she’s being approached by a Japanese patron to commission her for a piece. While there’s a good chance that the artist may not be affected by her family’s history and be able to create the commission without any issue, I also feel that if that’s not the case, and the dynamic makes her uncomfortable, she would be completely within her rights to simply decline.
There’s even the possibility of the effects of real trauma being unjustly applied: the black photographer who was assaulted by a white person and now simply doesn’t want to work events for white people (or vice versa). The female SA victim who won’t work with men.
Simply flipping the party who has a condition they can’t change seems (to me at least) to change the dynamic. Having non-choice conditions on both sides changes the dynamic even more.
As such, I feel that the only fair situation is one in which the business contact is understood to be a two party contract, with both sides having full agency over their decision about whether to enter into the agreement for any reason. It’s different when it’s like a shop owner or something, where the entire transaction takes a minute and the goods and services they provide are open to the public in general.
But in the cases I’m talking about, I see the business models and getting comparable to valves or switches in a system. Some valves are “always open” except in specific circumstances: the main water valve, the valve from the pipes into your toilet tank, etc. and they’re just left open outside of specific special circumstances. Others are “always closed” outside of special circumstances: the bypass for a filter, or a drainage valve, or even the knobs on the sink which are only open when you’re actually using it. I see storefronts as “always open” valves, providing their services to the public in general unless they’re closed. In contrast, contract workers are “always closed” valves, not working by default, and their valve of work only opens when they agree to it. And in that business model, they should be free to keep that valve closed for any reason, regardless of whether it’s a good or shitty reason to anyone else.
While you or I may not particularly like or approve of one party or the other’s reasoning for opting out of a contract, I do believe it should be their decision.
Did you respond to the wrong comment? If not, you read a lot into what little I said and much I wouldn’t have said, had I said more.
If it’s a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it’s less “owner sells things” and more “clients contract owner for XYZ”, and at that point, I’d tend to agree that it’s a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.
Healthcare falls into this quite easily.
This isn’t about defining a business model. It’s about defining discrimination and protected groups. By your logic above, the photographer could charge a black couple more than a white one. I know that’s not what you mean, but it would be the potential result of how that law would be interpreted.
At the end of the day, a Trump rally is not a protected group, so a business can say no. Just like a shop proprietor can refuse business to said rally goers, but not to a protected group.
By your logic above, the photographer could charge a black couple more than a white one. I know that’s not what you mean, but it would be the potential result of how that law would be interpreted.
No that is part of what I mean. And it is about defining a business model.
They absolutely could do that. You and I may not like that, but they should absolutely have the discretion to do that, when they’re negotiating individual terms with individual clients.
If the photographer was a black woman who’d been sexually assaulted by a white male police officer, should she be legally compelled to provide her services to a retirement party for a white male police chief, regardless of whether or causes her significant trauma?
What if instead it’s someone who was raised Catholic then eventually left the church with some hard feelings when they married an atheist…and now they’re being asked by the church to cover a fundraiser event the church is putting on? Or even just a Catholic family having a confirmation or something and they want the photographer to document the occasion?
I’m not saying that I personally wouldn’t do these events or that I feel the person’s objection may be legitimate or not, my point is that it doesn’t matter what I think, and that a freelancer should always have the right to not enter into a contract for any reason. Sure, that freedom could be used in ways that allow them to express their bigotry, but I feel that’s a possibility which is an acceptable cost/risk in return for the freedom of these freelancers to choose how to do business.
Just my opinion and you’re free to disagree!
They absolutely could do that. You and I may not like that, but they should absolutely have the discretion to do that, when they’re negotiating individual terms with individual clients.
No, they can’t. They cannot simply because they are a protected class. If there other reasons, they can.
If the photographer was a black woman who’d been sexually assaulted by a white male police officer, should she be legally compelled to provide her services to a retirement party for a white male police chief, regardless of whether or causes her significant trauma?
Not because he is white. But yes because he is a police chief, or just about any other reason.
What if instead it’s someone who was raised Catholic then eventually left the church with some hard feelings when they married an atheist…and now they’re being asked by the church to cover a fundraiser event the church is putting on? Or even just a Catholic family having a confirmation or something and they want the photographer to document the occasion?
She could decline because its a church, a business, but not because a client has a religion.
… my point is that it doesn’t matter what I think, and that a freelancer should always have the right to not enter into a contract for any reason. Sure, that freedom could be used in ways that allow them to express their bigotry, but I feel that’s a possibility which is an acceptable cost/risk in return for the freedom of these freelancers to choose how to do business.
The rest of the paragraph is what you think. It is not what the majority think, and that is why laws exist as they do, because the majority voted for them.
Just my opinion and you’re free to disagree!
I do disagree, and so does the law, excluding OPs post and thus why this is relevant and important to understand. You’re still trying to frame this as a business model, but it’s about protected classes.
Gig worker versus someone providing a service to the general public. A wedding photographer is not on the job until you both accept the terms and sign a contract.
Besides, do you really want a wedding photographer that doesn’t want to be there and has to be legally forced?
I’d say anything that could be considered as creative, and isn’t necessary for life.
That said, I’d rather non-essential creatives be allowed to discriminate. Who wants a closeted homophobe photographing their wedding? I’d rather a non-professional friend do it with their cell phone.
Should they also be allowed to have a whites only business? Because I’m pretty sure they legally can’t discriminate that way. It’s only okay if someone is LGBT+.
No. But he should be able to reject creating something that says “whites only” or “straights only”.
Example:
Denying a “white power” photo session - should be legal
Denying taking senior photos because the client is white - should not be legal
Denying professional headshots because the client is gay - should not be legal
Denying a “gay pride” photo session - should be legal (though you’re an asshole if you do it IMO)
But the thing is, don’t even give a reason. You don’t have to take every job, and you don’t have to say why. If you make the stand to not take a certain job because of political reasons, you are bringing negative attention on yourself
I don’t think you understood what I said.
The difference is in the business model.
If they’re working individual jobs on a freelance, case by case, contract-based model, then they can do whatever they want as far as signing a contract to do work or not signing a contract to do work with whomever they wish.
The reasons might be shitty sometimes, but that’s not enough of a reason to compel all freelancers to do work they don’t want to.
Are you actually claiming that as long as you’re freelance, you can discriminate against people by race?
I’m saying you don’t have to sign any contract you don’t want to sign with anyone for any reason.
Any reason including “I don’t work with black people?” Are you sure about that?
I’d say anything that could be considered as creative
This is basically how it’s handled. In the Masterpiece Cake case it wasn’t about selling the couple “just” a cake. If they’d wanted one out of the case the Shop was legally required to sell them one. They wanted a custom cake and that falls under “creative” which changes the rules.
The United States has long held that artistic expression, basically creative work, is protected under the 1st Amendment as a type of speech and the Government cannot compel speech without extreme need and even then it can only do it narrowly and temporarily.
What we really have with these is a collision between individual rights. Is it fair for the Government to abrogate the 1st Amendment Right of one person by compelling them to speak (create art) in order to satisfy the 14th Amendment Right of another person?
It may seem obvious but consider the controversy around Piss Christ. It was art and was thus subject to 1st Amendment protections and without those protections it would have been removed.
So not allowing art, creative work, 1st Amendment Protections would cause a pile of other problems. There is no perfect solutions when rights collide, there are only trade-offs.
Yes. I mean… if someone thinks it’s okay to force a minority to create racist content, their opinion isn’t worth a reply. And logically, that’s essentially what is being said when someone wants to force someone to create to spec something they don’t agree with.
Thank you for that great explanation!
So you’re saying minorities don’t have a right to anything but the bare essentials?
Or are you saying the right of bigoted business owners to discriminate trumps the right of individuals to be treated equally?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
Is mixing a drink creative?
Is hairstyling creative?
Is designing landscapes creative?
Is putting shingles on a house creative?
Is doing electrical work creative?
What type of work that requires some level of skill and design specific to the project not creative?
Why don’t minorities deserve the right to hire the same businesses as everyone else?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
Eh, if he want to leave money on the table, that is his business, I am sure there are plenty of people in a small town seeing the niche the guy just opened, the “Don’t be an asshole” niche.
The discriminating photographer will find that more than just LGBT people don’t want to support him. How many more is absolutely up for debate, but probably enough to support a new photographer
No. He gets to choose who to work for. He doesn’t get to choose not to work for entire classes of people when those classes are protected.
It’s the same as if he said he didn’t want black clients.
I mean…now you’re getting into the realm of words vs actions.
In the case of a freelance contract worker, there’s a difference between saying “I don’t do work for gays and blacks” and keeping your mouth shut (or providing some excuse like that you’re already too booked) and no-quoting that work, in effect not working for these groups.
However in both cases, I believe it is (and should be) legal.
Rude and offensive, sure, but I feel it’s a situation where you have to allow assholes to be assholes because the alternative is compulsory work which opens a whole new can of worms and is an even bigger restriction on freedoms.
So many people in these comments are trying to legislate morality, and it’s just a non-starter in these circumstances.
Protected classes deserve protection. Trying to get around that gets you sued.
Would it work is the wedding couple is a MAGA fan?
