- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
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I don’t know how this will do anything but result in another attack. Making people that desperate is not a solution that will work well. Plus, my fellow Jews should know better than intentionally starving desperate people.
starving Palestinians out like this, will force them into the desperate move attacking Israel. Israel can therefore declare them as terrorists and shoot them indiscriminately.  I hope that I’m wrong and this isn’t a tactical decision
The Egyptian border is still open. Food can still get in.
It is currently closed because of an Israeli air strike. Might open again tomorrow. Or it might be bombed again.
I have a feeling that was the plan all along
Intentionally antagonize the Palestinians that’s already been antagonized for decades … push them over the edge to make them make the first move.
Then once the first move is made … move in and completely annihilate them under the guise of justified retaliation.
When it comes to one of the most well organized, well trained, well funded militaries and intelligence organizations in the world … I don’t think anyone can surprise them with a major attack.
The Israelis knew this would happen … because they know how they will respond.
Thousands injured, almost a thousand murdered and hundreds kidnapped including women and children sounds like “the plan” to you? I’m not saying they’re saints but how can you say a country would go to war as a PR move just to see their already antagonized enemies suffer? This attack was planned for about a year with the help of Iran on a shabbat, alongside a rocket barrage to keep soldiers from mobilizing and joining in to help, but you honestly believe Israel were the ones who planned this.
The idea that the guys in government in Israel care for the lives of a few thousand people is as funny as it gets.
I mean weren’t Israelis recently demonstrating because these very same people wanted to destroy the independence of the Judiciary, which is required for it to function as a Pillar of Democracy, so in effect wanted to undermine Democracy and spread autocracy in Israel from a problem only of people with Arab Citizenship to people with Jewish Citizenship (yeah, Israel, uniquelly amongst “democracies” has a concept of citizenship with associated rights which is separate from nationality).
You can’t seriously belive such people care for a few thousand lives, no mater their nationality, especially if their deaths can be turned into a way to hold on to power and escape Justice (how’s Bibi process going?).
Israel has been executing their apartheid plan for 80 years.
Palestinian attack as justification for massive Israeli reprisal has been part of their plan for nearly as long.
America did it in 2001, and Israel is at least as morally bankrupt as the US.
Of course you believe in such conspiracy theories.
It’s not a traditional plan where everything is controlled.
It’s an orchestrated set of circumstances where you place your opponent in a difficult situation and force them to make the first move.
Then when your opponent makes the first move, you can carry out what you want without being blamed for starting anything.
I mean, even if they just had a general retaliation plan in case this ever happened…it is hard to believe Israel, with all its Western support, didn’t see this coming. And they have been bombing Gaza indescriminatly for years, with the only justification being “Well, Hamas was there, probably…”
Always be sure to capitalise on a crisis.
his attack was planned for about a year with the help of Iran
There has been no evidence of Iran helping to plan the attack. That’s a fake news story that is going around.
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Exactly, what did they think they’ll achieve but even more resentment and hate?
I honestly don’t know, but Neteyahu is one of the most evil people in the 21st century, so I have very little hope for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this.
Some people are bandying about some statistic out there of a majority of Palestinians approving of Hamas. First of all, that was before this happened, and secondly, approval is not the same as aid. The vast majority of them had nothing to do with this and are caught in the middle. Now at least 500 are dead in this current conflict.
Not just Palestinians, innocent Israelis are going to die from these decisions. I was following the judiciary saga in Israel a little, and I hope Israelis will eventually win the fight against this tyrant wannabe.
I don’t follow their politics closely, but I still can’t believe Netanyahu clawed his way back into power after basically everyone else in government, even fellow hard right-wingers, banded up to oust him. That, plus him having faced all those corruption charges. Wtf is up with politics in Israel that allowed him to claw his way back in so quickly like some sort of alien parasite?
It’s very politically divided, and almost impossible to form a coalition. You can just look at their history to see as much. It’s a government built on the coalition of fascists, liberals, and socialists. Very diverse in thought.
Since the Likud was the only one that could prove it could form a government…
I mean it’s very politically divided, but in terms of securing Israel, most opposition leaders called 9ff protests and united behind Netanyahu since there are still Hamas militants in Israel.
They expect to get the hostages back.
The intent is to make it impossible for there to be another attack.
Yep
So, normal occupation stuff then? They have very little drinking water already.
Having access to a few litres for drinking, cooking and minimal hygiene is still a far stretch away from having no access to clean water.
Typical water use in developed countries ranges between 100 litres and 400 litres a day per person, but you can get by temporarily with as little as 15 litres per person and day. https://www.who.int/teams/environment-climate-change-and-health/water-sanitation-and-health/environmental-health-in-emergencies/humanitarian-emergencies
Fully cutting the water supply like announced is a severe escalation of the humanitarian situation and beyond the “normal occupation stuff.”
Waaaaay beyond normal. 100% agree with you on that. This is a cruel punishment and target the whole people because their goal is to kill everyone of them and take the rest of the land, probably move into Lebanon after that. Sad fuxking sad.
All those who condemned Hamas for attacking civilians, I wonder if they will have the same energy when Israel starves civilians?
Yes. I condemn both. And I don’t play the “which is worse” game. They are both unacceptable evils. Israel needs to stop this immediately and, at the very least, negotiate a peace if not some sort of solution to the whole issue (hopefully including at least some right of return) and Hamas needs to return the hostages.
You don’t need to pick a side when both sides are committing atrocities.
The hostages are probably one of the things keeping some areas in Gaza secure. Was a effective move to gather as many as you can, not only as bargaining chips but strategically.
Hamaz will use them as human shields in important positions, Isreal gives little fucks about dead Palestinians, thing changes when it’s your own civilians you bomb.
They should not give them back if they want to be able to operate a little further and prepare for a possible ground assault by Israel.
That’s what their soldiers are more effective in, no sense in getting bombed without aa.
Was raping them and recording it also to keep Israel at bay?
No, that was the work of really depraved men. It’s not excusable, and I wish them the worst death has to offer.
My comment went more into a tactical, not a moral direction.
One of these “sides” could unilaterally peacefully end the conflict. For the other side choosing “peace” just means submitting to living under an occupying force as eternal second class citizens. insert mlk quote here.
How do you unilaterally declare peace?
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If you really think that Israel casually choosing to disarm itself doesn’t immediately end with it being destroyed, I’d invite you to look at the 2005 IDF withdrawal from Gaza, which was done as a token of goodwill on the path to peace.
Gazans then elected Hamas and immediately began launching rockets. Israel won’t make that mistake again.
why did they simply not have another election? or has another entity completely stopped that?
“They”, meaning the Israeli government, couldn’t force an election because they withdrew from Gaza and have no direct power there. Hamas suspended democracy to any meaningful degree because they don’t care about it. In the West Bank, elections have been suspended by the Palestinian Authority because it’s likely that Hamas would win them and create another Gaza, which Israel would not allow to happen.
You know you can read about it yourself instead of asking strangely suggestive questions
Yeah, both the Fatah and Gaza because both know that Palestinian people have largely become fed up with their combined inefficacy in trying to make a country of millions with a superior military just disappear.
Not to mention Iran constantly intervening to keep Hamas armed enough to suppress dissent.
Hamas wants all Jews gone. So I don’t see how that is in any way better?
You can’t unilaterally declare peace. That’s just an oxymoron.
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FAFO. I’m not sure what else was going to happen.
Israel has been fucking around for decades. Yet i bet you dont use that cop out for the attack on the weekend.
How were people peacefully attending a festival fucking around? Hmm?
Partying in an apartheid state?
Like shit, maybe it’s not a good idea to have a rave with the bastards commiting genocide and crimes against humanity on stolen land?
Strange fucking genocide. And as to whether the land was stolen, I’m sorry, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. There was a partition plan, the Arabs wouldn’t accept it, fought a bunch of wars, and got their shit kicked in. FAFO.
Hopefully they fully level it completely. Gaza shouldn’t be allowed to exist anymore.
I honestly think the two state compromise is no longer possible (something I strongly supported); we can all thank Hamas for that; they never wanted it either. They wanted Israel completely gone, and now instead it will be Gaza that gets wiped off the map.
I’ve no idea what will become of the civilians, but it likely won’t be good.
Edit: For those down voting me, why? Do you honestly see a better path out of this mess that doesn’t involve Hamas being utterly destroyed? Plus, none of the surrounding countries want Palestinian refugees because that means taking in Hamas sympathizers (did ya’ll forget what happened in Jordan as well?!). Wherever they go, they bring chaos.
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🖕
You are wondering about downvotes? You are calling for the total destruction of Gaza which inadvertly murders or displaces over 2 million people.
Also putting the sole blame for the impossibility of a two state solution on Hamas ignores how Israel built more and more illegal settlemants on occupied territory to deny territory to a two state solution. Also the recent ramp up in IDF backed settler violence, the storming of the Al-Aqsua Mosque by Jewish fundamentalists and the genocidal rhetoric of Netanyahus coalition partners makes it evident that Israel didn’t want a two state solution long before the Hamas attack.
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No. If you don’t like it, block me.
This conflict has been bringing out the absolute worst in people. Lemmy is acting more civil than reddit, but fuck… it’s not great. I see why this subject is avoided.
Making one giant concentration camp.
Huh.
To be fair, it already was a giant concentration camp. That’s the reason they got uppity in the first place.
I am not sure they understand what total means. Hamas didn’t get those rockets from Israel - hense there must be an unmonitored way in from Egypt that Hamas controls.
If there is, all food comes now from Hamas = Palestinians support Hamas more. If that gets cut, videos of mass starvation will eventually pull other Muslim countries into the conflict.
That’s what Israel wants. They want Iran to get pulled in and then further justify asking the West for more military aid and “support” to launch another “war” in it’s “defense”. Fucking terrorist regime in power unfortunately for Palestinians and Israelis.
Iran literally funds terrorists and advocates for the destruction of Israel
Israel could invade and conquer Iran tomorrow and they have not.
Iran’s military is as much a bungling shit-show as Iraq, Russia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. There is no universe in which Israel needs US help to shatter Iran.
Last time Iran even got close to enriching weapons-grade uranium, Israel launched airstrikes and flattened the plant, completely uncontested and without any reprisal from Iran, who knows they can’t win.
I doubt Israel could just invade and conquer Iran like that. Having superior equipment is one thing, but actually invading a place will inspire a population to fight against you more than almost anything else, and Iran is a mountainous country that has a population close to 10 times that of Israel. Actually occupying and holding a country like that for any length of time would be a nightmare even for a power like the United States (consider how Afghanistan ended), let alone Israel. They could maybe win a conventional engagement with their superior equipment, sure, and they could do tremendous damage to Iranian infrastructure with bombs or even nukes if they really wanted, but thats not the same as conquering a place.
They wouldn’t need to hold it. Iran is already primed for revolution. Just create the power vacuum.
Foreign invasion tends to cause people to rally around their government, or at least put internal conflicts on the backburner, historically, I’d imagine such a strategy would stand a serious chance of actually preventing any revolution that might otherwise take place.
I don’t see the younger generation of Iran, which was brutally put down over the Hijab protests, coalescing behind their terrorist government.
You really seem to know nothing about the geopolitics of the region. Iranians were put in that position when the regime was much weaker, and everyone united against the invader. Iranians are not likely to welcome anyone who tries to invade as an invasion inevitably massacres civilians, and foreigners killing Iranian civilians won’t be popular with you know, Iranian civilians.
“Israel could invade and conquer Iran tomorrow and they have not.”
Why haven’t they then? Why hasn’t the US? Ever heard of millenium challenge 2002 for example? Invading Iran is not as easy as you seem to think. Iran has a geography that makes invasion very very difficult, strong natural defences. It would have otherwise been already invaded.
US doesn’t because it isn’t politically feasible, domestically or abroad
Israel doesn’t because they’re trying to normalize relationships with neighboring countries, and have had a lot of success, which is why Iran funds Hamas.
Iran’s army is hot garbage and their terrorist government is barely clinging to power as it is.
Likely Israel is planning to gain control of the border with Egypt to cut off anything coming in that way, and either annexing that border strip outright or maintaining control of the border will be part of the peace terms.
Irrespective of stopping the movement of new arms and missiles into Gaza, more hawkish israelis would probably salivate over being able to shut down all trade into Gaza every time they shoot off missiles, especially since every time they do it weakens confidence in being able to trade into Gaza, raising the costs for anyone trying to import anything into Gaza, and lowering the sell value of any goods made in Gaza.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that Hamas is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
You can male the same argument the other way around. Why don’t we stick to what’s already international war, and that attacking civilians is forbidden? This seems a form of collective punishment as well.
Submitting to an oppressive government is not peace.
By definition peace is when war and violence stop, the kinds of governments involved are irrelevant.
Oppressive systems passively inflict violence on the oppressed. Artificial lack of access to basic necessities like food, shelter, healthcare hurts or even kills people. Getting over policed gets people hurt or killed.
The absence of war isn’t the same thing as the absence of conflict. The conflict is built into the structure of a hierarchical society. It’s just only felt by some. A war brings the conflict to the surface to make those who the system supports feel the pain of those who it does not.
The government could give in and create a more just society for everyone and the conflict would be resolved. The oppressed giving in only benefits those in power. They go back to passively experiencing systemic violence.
“Look what you’re making us do.”
Ah, I forgot, Hamas simply had to rape a bunch of women and butcher 200 people at a festival. That’s just what righteous resistance looks like.
Or perhaps childish quips aren’t actually useful in a productive conversation, who knows
Easy for you to talk about what’s righteous or not when it’s not your land being apartheided
They unfortunately don’t have the luxury of a fair war.
Israel made this bed now they’re going to lay in it whether any of us like it or not and I think it’s atrocious but Israel needs to bear some blame for this.
I’ll say this one more time. Nothing about fighting oppression requires you to rape and murder civilians. There are plenty of military bases all around Gaza if Hamas wanted to focus on military targets.
If you think that fighting oppression requires you to rape and murder innocent people, you deserve you oppression.
I will not say that Hamas did anything ethical, it was morally deplorable. But at the same time, unless we tackle the underlying issues of Israeli apartheid, we are begging for people in Palestine to view members of Hamas as freedom fighters as opposed to savages. Israel is creating this problem.
The quickest way to disassemble Hamas is to give the Palestinian people justice and humanity.
Not raping and murdering civilians is not white privilege you morally bankrupt walnut.
I am not morally justifying their actions, I’m saying that Israel is responsible for creating the environments in which terrorists can rise. We learned nothing from our wars in the Middle East.
My point was that Israel cannot offload to Hamas all responsibility for the suffering to civilians caused by blockading Gaza. It’s Israel’s choice to react like this. I understand Israel’s reasons for taking this extreme action, but Israel should take responsibility for it, not pretend it was forced into this and it has to keep starving civilians until Hamas capitulates. And of course I’m not condoning the atrocities committed by Hamas.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that the Zionist entity is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians.
You know as well as I do that a de-militarized Israel would very rapidly no longer exist.
If you recall, Gaza was occupied until 2005, when the IDF withdrew as a sign of goodwill towards peace. Gazans then elected Hamas and started shooting rockets at Israeli cities.
If you’re supporting a side that’s threatening to livestream the murder of hostages, you need to take a very long look in the mirror.
If you’re supporting the side indiscriminately starving millions, you need to take a very long look in the mirror. This fight is villains vs villains, and civilians are taking the brunt of the brutality from both sides.
You know as well as I do that a de-militarized Israel would very rapidly no longer exist.
Yes
Mask off, so my job is done here.
I’ve never been trying to hide behind a mask, just like the Zionist entity has never tried to hide that it primarily targets civilians.
People here don’t seem to understand this. All they think is “Israel bad”. Also, instead of cheering for Hamas when they drag dead civilians through town, they could, you know, not do that.
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Bro half this thread has a hard on for Hamas, his terrorist organization and for antisemitism, if you can’t see it I wonder why
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I don’t give a shit about Hamas, I give a shit about Palestine. From the river to the sea, bay-bee. Israel has no claim on that land. The citizens can stay, but the country must be dissolved.
The citizens wouldn’t be able to stay, though. Hamas wants an Islamic state and sees Jews as direct enemies of Allah who should not be allowed to exist at all. Like in, they don’t just want Israel gone, they want all Jews gone.
Good luck with that, it’s clearly not a viable outcome. Generations of Israelis have come and gone and they now legitimately consider it their home as well, and they support their government. It’s the only thing keeping them from being slaughtered like Hamas openly calls for. As for Hamas, it is the government Gaza elected, they represent that part of Palestine. Let’s not pretend they’re separate and unrelated entities.
Because not every Lemmy instance federates with every other, people on different instances can see slightly different selections of comments. I have read many threads and I see hardly any support for Hamas, but I hear it’s more prevalent on some of the instances I don’t see content from.
I’m on their instance (lemmy.world) and can see all the support for Hamas clear as day.
Starving innocents is bad, yes. Abuse breeds abuse, it’s no wonder the Palestinian reaction considering everything the Israeli government has done to them.
Not to mention the Israeli military is the reason Hamas is where it is, funding it in the 80s and 90s because they’re easier to hate than the moderate coalition.
Starving innocents is bad
How is it Israel’s responsibility to supply their enemies in the first place? Cutting supply lines is like the most basic military tactic there is.
If they don’t want to starve, they can ask Iran to send some food instead of the next rocket shipmment.
Why is it okay that Israel has taken so much control of the region that Gaza can’t even control its own resources? This isn’t some new development. Why are you talking like Palestine is just Hamas and not also thousands of women and children that didn’t choose to be in this open air prison?
It’s amazing how easy it is to get average people to disregard their own humanity and blithely condemn thousands to cruel brutal deaths because of the actions of a group that was literally funded by the military they’re resisting when they first got started.
Don’t give me that psycho shit, the Israeli government has been perpetuating this shit show for decades. The blood of these concert goers is on their malicious actions just like they’re responsible for the deaths of journalists like Shireen Abu Akleh and for the conditions Palestinians live within.
Much like in Israel, the average citizen doesn’t get much choice and instead gets to bear the brunt of the other sides rage. That’s not something to be justified.
Why is it okay that Israel has taken so much control of the region that Gaza can’t even control its own resources?
Because the can and it’s in their interesst. Again, a blockade is a very basic military tactic.
Why are you talking like Palestine is just Hamas and not also thousands of women and children that didn’t choose to be in this open air prison?
Hamas enjoy wide support in the population though.
For the Palestines that actually don’t support Hamas, it sure sucks. But guess who’s the first party that surpresses any Palestines that support peace negotiation or any normalisation of the conflict? Right … Hamas, because they are militant hardliners and don’t actually give a shit about peace or the Palestinian people.
The blood of these concert goers is on their malicious actions
Fuck off. The blood is on the people that pulled the trigger and one one else. Anything else just makes you a supporter of terrorism.
Much like in Israel, the average citizen doesn’t get much choice and instead gets to bear the brunt of the other sides rage
Actually, Israel goes to great lenght to install defensive meassures to protect their citizens.
On the ther side, Hamas will go to great lenght to protect their weapons from Israeli attacks by hiding them amongst their citizens, preferably in school.
If Palestine had the international funds and military equipment of Israel they would be able to similarly protect their civilians. You’re just glossing right past the fact that one has been intentionally impoverished. Hard to afford an iron dome when your enemy won’t even let your people get adequate food and water.
Also the blood is on more than just the trigger pullers. Surely you wouldn’t say that organizers that didn’t directly participate don’t have blood on their hands. Of course they do, they enabled the attack.
Once you’ve established that our world is more than just a string of isolated incidents it’s easy to see how the Israeli military partially caused this much like how the American government brought about conditions that lead to 9/11. Your aggressive denial is just you getting trapped in emotional thinking.
People like you are why Americans invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. All about killing terrorists but never that interested in the geopolitical context that bred those terrorists. Thus a never ending story of dead innocents while military contractors take in billions.
If Palestine had the international funds and military equipment of Israel they would be able to similarly protect their civilians
Or they would use those funds and equipment to do what they’ve layed out in their charter, which is to destory Israel and “push the jews into the sea”.
You’re just glossing right past the fact that one has been intentionally impoverished
No I’m not. The better question is, why is that? According to lemmy, they have like the noblest cause in the world, so why isn’t the international community flocking to aid them?
Also the blood is on more than just the trigger pullers. Surely you wouldn’t disagree that organizers that didn’t directly participate don’t have blood on their hands.
Sure, there is more blame to go around. But we should have learned from WW2 that “just following orders” isn’t an excuse that absolves people from responsibilty.
I guess it is a bit muddier when you account for religious childhood indoctrination.
All about killing terrorists but never that interested in the geopolitical context that bred those terrorists.
Because it’s not that relevant to the situation anymore. It’s very unlikley that a nation will ever be established in the way that Israel was. And yes, it was a very terrible chain of events. Hopefully lessons have been learned to avoid such partitions in the future.
But for this conflict, it’s done. Unless you have a time machine, Israel is there now and it’s powerful enough to not be going away anytime soon.
There is also no chance of a Palestinian military victory. So the only prospects for them is either making some kind of peace (yes, the conditions will be shit, but the killing will stop) … or keep fighting an unwinnable war, which will just put you into an even shittier position down the line.
Talking about the geopolitical context can be very interessting, but it doesn’t help much when coming up with a solution. But we can blame the British if you want?
You can understand the contributing factors that lead to repugnant acts without claiming them to be justifiable, which is what a lot of people are doing here.
I’m sure there are people with gross opinions like that but it serves conversation better to not make blanket statements about people who disagree with you.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that Israel is completely capable - at any moment - of surrendering, giving right of return, de-militarizing, opening all borders, creating a single government that fairly represents all in the area, giving reparations, and vowing to never again attempt to kill civilians. The water and electricity would come right back on.
Doing so would save the lives of countless Palestinian civilians, and if they had any care for their lives at all, they would do this immediately.
surrendering, releasing all hostages, de-militarizing,
And allow the genocide of Palestine to continue without opposition? Why should they simply lay down and die? Because fighting back is distasteful?
Then so be it and fight without complaint.
I must have missed the lesson in school about how the way to resist oppression is to rape and murder hundreds of innocent civilians at a festival.
It’s not as if there were a lack of military targets around. If Hamas had strictly focused on attacking military bases and infrastructure, I might be able to be sympathetic. At the least, that would fall under the umbrella of meaningful resistance. Instead, their sole aim was to murder as many Jews as possible. Kidnapping civilians and threatening to murder them on a livestream is absolutely indefensible.
The only explanation I have found, for Hamas attacking those civilians, is, that they are cowards. They are scared. If they attack military personnel, the soldiers actually fight back… raping and killing civilians is just so much more convenient for Hamas.
Fortunately the war criminals are now being blockaded and bombed to shit and are about to be invaded
2.9k comments in 3 months.
and I thought I used this too much. Go touch some grass.
2.9k comments in 3 months.
32.2 comments per day, each and every day, given a 30-day month.
I travel a lot for work and get bored in airports.
Sorry your job is hard and mine isn’t.
I mean my job gives me a lot of free time too, but I usually spend it talking to people, reading, learbing something or even playing video games, fuck dude I even spend way too much time on lemmy too. You have so many other constructive options you could spend your time on instead of being a troll on niche social media.
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Looking at their post history, I can’t figure out if they’re a troll, a propagandist, or are really just that stupid. I suppose it can be some combination of two or all three.
Or simply a bot to cause drama / increase engagement / because they can.
Maybe I’ve grown paranoid about the whole bot issue, but after I saw how people on Discord coordinate bots to fake entire conversations all of you are potentially non-human to me!
Yeah, by the war criminals on the other side.
Also, if you think people murdering each other is “fortunate” you’re some low level scum in my eyes.
I think terrorists being killed is good for everyone on Earth.
I think the innocents who will suffer deserve every sympathy, and that all anger about innocent loss of life belongs squarely aimed at the terrorists who picked this fight
Hopefully the death of Hamas leads to radical shifts in Israeli policy toward Palestinians in general.
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Lol uncircumcised dicks look like actual shit dude.
Bro they’re won’t be a Palestine of the world doesn’t step in and we won’t stop hello genocide goodbye Palestine.
I don’t believe there should be a Palestine. Israel should control the entire area and give the current Palestinian civilians citizenship.
Anything else just causes more of this.
What in the fuck makes you think eradicating a country is the solution, you’ll just have displaced Muslims more angry and now homeless.
give the current Palestinian civilians citizenship
Do you think this means literally blow up the part of the planet currently recognized as Palestine?
There are not really Jewish space lasers man.
Fortunatelythe largest prison in the world is now being blockaded and bombed to shit and is about to be invaded.The only prison you can leave, work in other countries from, vote for terrorists in before those terrorists canceled voting, and have autonomy in your daily life.
Oh and also purchase arms, break into a neighboring country, and murder their civilians, including beheading babies.
What a weird prison!
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And the answer is all of them because they either don’t care or are allied with/support one side or the other.
Are you suggesting that Israel should be bound by international law to not impose collective punishment, while the state of Palestine is killing and kidnapping civilians and clearly not hindered by it? Palestine is a hostile nation that just launched a bloody attack on civilians. Aren’t the effects of a war typically felt by all members of a state participating in it?
Yes of course.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
This terrorist organization, Hamas, runs the government in Gaza. They were elected in democratic elections in 2006 and no elections have been held since. This is an attack from a terrorist state, not an example of clandestine civilians acting on their own.
The Hamas is called a terrorist organization by Israel, most NATO countries and many others. It is the official language of the Western nations and neither Gaza nor Palestine ist recognized as a “state” by Israel or again most of NATO.
Adding more hypocricsy to the hypocricsy doesn’t make it better as a justification.
Although that is true, the state of Palestine has significant international recognition.
Terrorism is most obviously defined by attacks on civilians for political ends. Hamas, who is in charge of Gaza, just orchestrated the murder of 1000+ civilians. I’m at a loss as to how one can try to portray this as not a terrorist state. An EDM concert full of civilian youths is not a valid military target, this wasn’t collateral damage, it was an intentional attack on civilians.
Is it any wonder NATO and Israel doesn’t want to normalize relations with them?
Seriously, partisan operations tend to be war crimes. That doesn’t mean that shooting the entire village is now acceptable. You get hanged for that.
Israel as the occupying power had already been breaking international law so a bit more won’t make much difference.
No.I do believe Israel should respect international law. This doesn’t mean I approve of what Hamas did.
Gaza is still accessible via Egypt, supply lines can still remain open. It seems absurd to suggest Israel should be forced to aid and supply a hostile state that is currently killing their civilians. A blockade seems appropriate to me given the circumstances.
Theoretically if Mexico invaded the US we should still keep supplying them with energy, food and water while they attack us because otherwise it’s collective punishment?
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- Food and water can still get in via the Egyptian border, supply lines are still open. This isn’t a mediaeval siege, if starvation were the goal no border crossings would be allowed.
- Funny how in this conflict one side is expected to adhere to international law while the other side totally ignores it, intentionally attacks civilians, takes hostages, launches missiles indiscriminately at civilian centers, etc., If Israel adopted the tactics Palestine is willing to employ there would be no Palestine.
Yeah Israel is expected to obey international law because it gets $3.8 billion a year in funding from the US to support their military. If Israel refuses to follow international law then the US is effectively giving that money to terrorists.
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If you were to take a guess at the ratio of Palestine civilians to Israeli civilians that have been killed in the last 50 years. What would it be?
I would guess that Palestinian civilian death counts are significantly higher, as most of the fighting has been done within occupied Palestinian territories, civilian uprisings happen against the IDF often there, Israel can bomb targets in Palestine freely causing collateral damage while they are protected by the Iron Dome, Hamas and other such groups are fighting a guerilla war by hiding among civilians, and you wouldn’t have brought it up were it not a huge ratio. 9:1?
With all the civilians they intentionally murdered the ratio is certainly moving in their favor now.
An eye for an eye, leaving the world blind.
they Israel should divest from the region and let them sort their own stuff out. instead they meddle and remain in control.
They should stop occupying the foreign hostile power that is presently attacking, killing, and kidnapping their civilians with guerilla attacks? Given that Hamas refuses to negotiate or make concessions in return, that sounds like bad game theory.
[Hamas’s charter,] article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
They should stop occupying the foreign
Calling the native population foreign is certainly a take. If you are a mask off dipshit that is. And yes they should stop occupying.
Calling the native population foreign is certainly a take.
Are you saying Palestine isn’t a state, or that Israel isn’t a state? Because if they are two states as they claim, inhabitants of one are definitely foreign to the other.
And what’s your wise opinion on the illegal settlements?
I don’t like the fundies who are doing it or the way they treat the locals. They are clearly an encroachment on Palestinian territory, and I can understand why they represent an existential threat to Palestine and are such a point of contention.
I understand why Palestine loathes them, and why Israel ignores them. From the Israeli perspective ignoring them is good game theory. This is a reasonable, (but perhaps not ethical,) response to an enemy who refuses to negotiate a viable solution despite the realities of the situation. Unless Palestine comes to the bargaining table in good faith, willing to make some concessions, they will eventually lose everything. This puts continual pressure on them to do so, if they do not they will continue to lose territory. They have been overwhelmingly defeated time and time again but refuse to acknowledge this, leaving Israel with few viable options to deal with the threat that a hostile and belligerent Palestine represents. There’s little else they can take from them but the land, and they still seem unwilling to compromise. This will either bring them to the table or leave them without a home, either way resolving the threat in their favor.
But the US doesn’t require Mexico to get running water and electricity from the US and refuse to let them build their own infrastructure or get it from anywhere else…
The Rafah border crossing is currently closed due to an Israeli air strike. Might reopen tomorrow. Might be bombed again.
Egypt is as hostile to Gaza or worse, but they get a free pass not being Jewish.
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Hopefully the blockade can be lifted soon. Since it appears Israel is at war against the government of Gaza (Hamas), there’s a difficult line to walk where a complete and lasting victory is achieved while avoiding humanitarian disaster. A quick victory will hopefully avoid the most extremes of humanitarian disaster. In the long term I hope nearby Arab states help provide a peaceful solution to the problem.
While i undestand the strategic motivation and can see why fuels and electricity are considered necessary to weaken the military capeabilities of Hamas cutting the supply of drinking water and food is not excuseable.
Especially without access to water it only takes a few days until people are dying from dehydration and it is impossible to treat wounded. Also the substitution of clean drinking water with water from tainted sources can quickly lead to an epidemic of cholera and other deadly diseases that would be devastating and impossible to contain given the current situation.
Is there a reasonably safe way to provide water during the type of military operation that’s coming? Pipes have historically been used to smuggle weapons into Gaza, even the water pipes, so Israel is likely trying to contain that source of weapons during the upcoming operation.
i strongly doubt weapons to be smuggled through drinking water pipes. that would require to close the pipe segment on both ends and pump out all the water manually and the water supplier on Israels side would notice that no more water is flowing.
Also that requires pipes to be at least somewhere in the 1400+ range, which you only find directly at the water source or long transmission lines that are typically operated in free flow because pumping would be too expensive.
Finally your argument doesnt make sense. First of all who would be smuggling weapons from Israeli water plants into Gaza. Second of all again, an empty pipe that is large enough could be used for smuggling. A pipe that is filled with water cannot.
So they will kill all people in Gaza?
So, it’s an unattended concentration camp, and they hope everyone dies there.
Has been for decades…
It’s over 2 million in like 140 sq miles…
They don’t have their own police, don’t get to vote (Israel won’t let them have an election), aren’t in control of their own utilities, don’t have freedom of movement, and get treated as subhuman.
And Israel wants everyone to believe there’s no reason for Palestinians to hate Israel’s government.
Put people in those conditions and refuse to treat them as humans, and some of them are going to stop acting like humans. It’s basically sociology and would happen to any population in those conditions
Hamas is who does not allow further elections in Gaza.
Following the Fatah–Hamas conflict that started in 2006, Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip without elections. Gazan Prime Minister Haniyye announced in September 2012 the formation of a second Hamas government, also without elections.
I always thought that is what Israel wanted anyway.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites?
Send in ground forces that can separate fighters from civilians in a way that leveling a building and killing everyone inside cannot.
Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes
So saying “attention, we will destroy your home, all your possessions, and your livelihood in 15 minutes”, before doing exactly that to Innocent people makes them the good guys? I don’t think so.
“They’re wrecking homes and destroying infrastructure, but at least they’re nice about it!”
Israel is in the wrong because they’re settler colonialists who stole the land from Palestinians. There is no defensive acts, continued occupation and protection of their occupation is an offensive act.
This kind of attitude just means more conflict because Israel is never going to leave that land.
If you’ve read the news lately you might notice that several just did.
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If history’s taught us anything, it’s that the good guys always indiscriminately target civilians!
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naive
Well, killing some and hope the rest will try to flee to Egypt at which point Gaza is free for the taking.
Or well, maybe, they hope that in desperation people will try to rush the blockade, at which point they just kill them. Hamas awful actions have given Israel plenty of ammunition to keep everyone else on the world stage away for a while, no matter what they do now.
Hamas awful actions
Didn’t happen in a vacuum…
There’s reasons people are willing to die in a war they have no chance of winning.
It’s stand up for your people or watch them essentially be tortured slowly to death.
It’s stand up for your people or watch them essentially be tortured slowly to death.
There is another option. Negotiate a viable peace, which they have refused to do repeatedly. Palestine is essentially a defeated state that refuses to acknowledge its loss or make concessions. The only victory condition they are willing to entertain is not viable and their insistence on fighting an unwinnable war, often via guerilla attacks and terrorism, will not end well for them.
[Hamas’s charter,] article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_CharterGaza’s last election was 17 years ago…
And Israel both refuses to recognize Hamas as a government, but also refuses to help Gaza hold an election.
They won’t negotiate with Gaza, which because it was separated from the West Bank by Israel is essentially it’s own government. It’s pretty classic “divide and conquer”.
And before you say “Israel shouldn’t be involved” then why are they in charge of pretty much every other facet of Gaza?
Wikipedia says Palestinian presidential elections were indefinitely postponed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas due to a Hamas-Fatah schism:
The elections took place amid a tense atmosphere between Fatah and Hamas over the postponement of more major elections that were also scheduled for 2021. It was also reported that voters were angry with the postponement of the presidential election and the legislative election by President Mahmoud Abbas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%9322_Palestinian_local_elections
Israel both refuses to recognize Hamas as a government, but also refuses to help Gaza hold an election. … And before you say “Israel shouldn’t be involved” then why are they in charge of pretty much every other facet of Gaza?
Because they are an adjacent hostile terrorist state, dedicated to their destruction, that they want to contain via leverage?
Raping women is standing up for palestinians is it? How exactly have the actions of hamas helped the palestinian people?
You can just scroll down and read the rest of the comment chain.
I’ll even quote the first for free
You think every Palestinian is doing that?
That’s the main use of propaganda, take some isolated incidents that really did happen nd really are inexcusable, and amplify the shit out of that so people think the whole side is doing that.
The militaries of both sides are doing awful shit, but only one side has the power to enforce peace.
You said hamas awful actions didnt happen in a vacuum and that they are standing up for their people. You are justifying mass rape as a war tactic. There is plenty criticize israel for but justifying the torture of civillians is appalling.
I mean, at the same time I can’t support mass rape. Or rape in general.
Also not a fan of carrying around naked corpses of multilated people. Not a fan.
You think every Palestinian is doing that?
That’s the main use of propaganda, take some isolated incidents that really did happen nd really are inexcusable, and amplify the shit out of that so people think the whole side is doing that.
The militaries of both sides are doing awful shit, but only one side has the power to enforce peace.
You think every Palestinian is doing that?
Which part of “Hamas awful actions” made you think that I extend this to all Palestinians?
I mean, at the same time I can’t support mass rape. Or rape in general
If the actions of a few are enough for you not to support Palestinians…
Then yeah, you’re extending that to all Palestinians.
Why do I need to support mass rape to support the Palestinian peoples right to a state and a free life?
At what point is mass rape necessary for that?
Rape is wrong and I stand by that in what appears to be a surprisingly controversial move.
Scum Israelis
Well, FAFO
It’s now the FO stage
