While many believe young people are becoming more liberal, data shows that 12th grade boys are nearly twice as likely to identify as conservative compared to liberal. Around 25% of high school seniors identify as conservative while only 13% identify as liberal. In contrast, the share of 12th grade girls identifying as liberal has risen to 30%. Many factors may contribute to this trend, including the rhetoric of Donald Trump which appealed to disaffected young men, and the focus of progressive movements on issues of gender and racial equality which some young men perceive as a “matriarchy.” However, most high school seniors claim no political identity, and many boys in high school do not actively discuss
This frightening. We are starting to see more boys becoming incels?
Anecdotally I want to say boys have always felt more conservative around that age, especially when I was in highschool in the early 2000s. Granted I lived my teen years in the south, and this probably more of a cope than an actual explanation. There definitely seems to be a lot more active targeting of young men by right wing influencers now. In the past right wing media seemed to always be the domain of old people.
I went through a really weird phase in my life when I was kind of somewhere between conservative and neoliberal. And that was when I lived for 5 years in Arizona of all places. Now I am so far to the left that there isn’t really much more room for me to head. Recruiting conservatives at young ages apparently seems to be the key move for fundamentalists of all brands. This has been time-tested by the likes Al Qaida, ISIS, and the Taliban.
I suspect it’s less due to the rhetoric of Donald Trump & more due to the influence of Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson & Joe Rogan.
Well, think about it. Who is the most confused, scared, and angry about women not throwing themselves at their feet? Pubescent boys. The entire right wing media sphere is aimed at someone with the temperament and unleashed anger and horniness of high school boys, in a time when kids are having less sex. These perpetually online kids are being fed into the ecosystem through YouTube, then they hear it normalized on fox/literally any right wing outlet, and then they get those poisonous ideas reinforced when they go to school and don’t get laid by the hottest girl they know.
I don’t think these things were planned, by any means. But they sure did work out for them.
No, those personalities rose due to the mainstream (mainly left) not being able to discuss normal masculinity and overall only portraying masculinity as something toxic. When you go in one radical direction, you get radical response (Tate, etc).
We need normal, non-partisan discussion and stance towards masculinity.
Normal masculinity is simply existing and not giving a fuck how other people expect you to live. There’s almost no point in discussing it more as the left is already very comfortable with discussing the idea that you are who you are and you can be proud of that. That message is literally everywhere.
Toxic masculinity has to be discussed because people are being made to confuse being toxic with being “strong” which is something the right is creating. Their image of a “real man” is toxic.
It’s like the whole “racist right winger” or “neonazi” labels given to a politician, but then some random right winger gets all bent out of shape as if they were called a Nazi… They weren’t even part of the conversation, they decided to take on that guilt. It’s the same with toxic masculinity. If you’re not expressing the things that are discussed within that subject then they aren’t talking about you, you’re more than likely “performing” normal masculinity. It’s not the fault of the people having the conversation that someone else chose to feel offended by it when it wasn’t about them at all.
like, there isn’t a non-partisan stance towards masculinity
What is “normal masculinity”?
You know, protecting your wife and kids if it comes to that, not being an domestic abuser, etc.
Defending others has nothing to do with being “masculine”.
Oh, my bad - these are obviously toxic examples! Or, idk, women can do both also? /s
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Interesting to assume people like Tate didn’t exist before. They just changed their rhetoric and added “anti-feminist” to their agenda since that’s trendy in certain circles now. These people existed already in much greater numbers in the past.
Masculinity is not the centre of the discussion of the left or even feminism, though. It’s just what certain people want to make out of it, which is exactly what the quote above is referring to.
Advancing rights for women in general spans a broad spectrum of intersectionality with masculinity just being one fraction of it. You can look up how many feminists are actually talking about masculinity unprompted and you’d be surprised how infrequent it is. It is a certain group of people with an often anti-feminist agenda who try to make it seem as if masculinity was somehow the main hook of feminist discussion.
Most leftists and feminists want emancipation for men as well, with that they mean the emancipation from gender roles for everyone.
I grew up in a Calvinistic worldview where every week you were reminded you were utterly disgusting in the eyes of God and simply by being born you deserved to be tortured more brutally than the English language can adequately express because you had by virtue of being human inherited original sin, and the only way you could get rid of it is if you had been predestined to be saved by Jesus (who did not come to save everyone, only a select few). Anyone can imagine the horrible effect this polar opposite of therapy has on rates of mental illness in that community. This kind of worldview was popular with the English Dissenters (those famous ‘persecuted pilgrims’ belong to this category) who later crossed the Atlantic in large numbers and I think I can see its unpleasant legacy in American political thought both left and right.
If there is one idea I could delete out of existence it’s this notion of original sin in both its religious and secular forms. I would make it unlawful to tell a child that they were born guilty of anything simply for existing or that guilt can be inherited from anyone because of how psychologically harmful this is. While it’s usually not the intention there exists a trend that de facto results in telling boys they’re guilty of various things simply for existing, and then in the same breath we act surprised when scumbags like Tate are hoovering up their attention instead of everyone telling them what a piece of crap they are for being born. Manly qualities in my mind are qualities like physical and mental strength in the face of adversity, having the moral courage to make difficult decisions for the good of a group, a deep sense of good sportsmanship, being willing and able to take risks when required, that sort of thing. The left should be all over that as its history is littered with such examples!
The left needs to own healthy masculinity and properly address very legitimate issues that disproportionally hurt boys in our society.
Otherwise we will lose a whole generation to toxic male role models in the manosphere.
John Oliver, John Iadorola from the damage report, Mike Figuredo from the Humanist report, Kyle Kulenski from secular talk, David Doel from the rational national, Sam Seder from the majority report, Lance from the Serfs, Matt Binder from the majority report. Left leaning positive male role models. I’m sure there is more but they stand out as I watch them every week.
We’ve also got Brian Tyler Cohen, Hasan Piker, David Pakman as well. Beau Of The 5th Column I know has already been listed, but I feel when it comes to instilling change in the hearts and mind of radicalized young men, he’s up there with Hasan and BTC.
They do, but they are not mainstream. “Average person” probably never heard of them.
Jon Stewart, Trae Crowder, and Beau of the Fifth Column are three more excellent examples of positive male role models.
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I fucking love Beau
JOHN OLIVER IS A REAL PERSON?
No he is just a meme on r/pics
Who is our Jordan Peterson equivalent?
Reporters and intellectuals can be role models but they are more passive than actively preaching what masculinity should mean.
This, want it or not, it is not hard for boys to feel incredibly alienated in the left hemisphere. We gone from “girls have issues too” to “only girls can have issues”. It’s ridiculous, and even more ridiculous when you remember that girls reach their growth spurt sooner than boys, effectively eliminating many of the purported advantages of boys over girl, making them feel even more alienated.
I wonder where you get the impression that “the left” is saying “only girls can have issues”? It feels to me like people have spun this reactionary tale in the backlash to feminism but no one is actually saying that.
It is like every time someone tries to talk about issues women face this is seen as an attack on men. Which I find frankly ridiculous. At the same time, in many cases when people bring up boy’s or men’s issues they will only do so while simultaneously attacking feminist talking points. This is especially prevalent on social media platforms like Reddit and YouTube.
It does seem like anti-feminists and sometimes straight up misogynistic people have monopolized the entire discussion surrounding men’s issues. When you look up information regarding issues men face it is really hard to not end up in a hateful corner of the internet. Some of these sources do not actually have the people looking for help at heart, they are simply anti-feminist and will even go so far as to provide inaccurate information or withhold information just so that they can keep up their narrative.
in many cases when people bring up boy’s or men’s issues they will only do so while simultaneously attacking feminist talking points.
This is very much a talking point by “only girls can have issues” people.
“Men don’t have issues, men’s rights groups only exist to spread misogyny!”
That is a key point of why the idea that men’s issues are not taken seriously is spreading, because simply talking about / focusing on men’s issues quickly gets people labled as misogynists.
This both gets people to stop caring about the idea of misogynism, because “apparently simply talking about men’s issues is misogyny”, and thereby also pushes people to develop more problematic views.
because simply talking about / focusing on men’s issues quickly gets people labled as misogynists.
This is simply not true.
I’m pretty far left and in my entire life I’ve never experienced “only girls can have issues” as more than an extreme fringe statement.
What I tend to see regarding men is how they, too, are victims of toxic masculinity, taught to internalize their emotions until they have literal breakdowns. The Left gives a fuck about that, and it’s one of the cited reasons they have problems with toxic masculinity.
I read a great WaPo article on this recently. Basically on the left, no one can define healthy masculinity and it’s really opened up a spot for the right wing to swoop in and define it for us.
I think it’s because a progressive view on gender isn’t focused on defining what the “right” way to be masculine is. No one on the left tells women and girls what the right way to be feminine is either. That’s the whole concept; recognizing that strict gender norms are exclusionary and create marginilized men and women.
The issue is not the left not telling young men how to be a “real man”, it’s the right pushing toxic ideas of masculinity. From a left perspective, you are good man simply by not being toxic and just being who you are as an individual.
I think people here are falling into a trap of framing laid for them by the right; namely that the right deliberately fabricated a mental health crisis for young men by telling them they’re victims, and has also now gotten the left to blame themselves for it. Young men are only victims of right-wing toxicity.
The left side of politics has always struggled to bring people along for the journey, they can advocate for people but building a coherent argument and inspiring people to come along for the ride will always be their downfall. They cannot achieve progressive change if they fail to recognize the concerns of the right.
The left side of politics has always struggled to bring people along for the journey, they can advocate for people but building a coherent argument and inspiring people to come along for the ride will always be their downfall
You’re right. Nothing that’s truly valuable in legislation is simple. It’s hard to turn something complicated into a sound byte without making shit up, and the Left in most countries have to be careful alienating the intellectuals if they start making shit up. We don’t vote for bullshit.
The Right has no problem making shit up and those who vote for them are not really affected by it. When the Notch Baby bullshit was going on (a US thing… there was basically a big hoax about a generation being owed money, and a lot of politicians ran with it), I didn’t know a single right-leaning voter who would give the least bit of a shit that they were voting for people who were willfully taking advantage of the elderly. I guarantee a left-party candidate who pulled that shit would lose by a landslide.
So the Right can bad-faith point out a concern that “toxic masculinity” is just “masculinity” and a good thing. They know the Left can’t soundbyte their way out of it because it’s not a one-liner to say “it’s not about masculinity or feminity, it’s about not being a dick and all of us helping the underdog”. It’s VERY easy to sell people who aren’t the underdog on victim complexes.
Shame that the concerns of the right are mostly just disguised misogyny, racism and classism.
That’s not surprising since high school boys think they have it all figured out and think they’re special. Plus they still believe the lies they’ve been taught in school. I was conservative around that age. When you think that the world is fair, the government benevolent, and failure a result of laziness, then conservative makes a lot of sense. When you grow up and get some real world experience, you learn just how high the chips are stacked against average people. You learn some empathy.
I agree with the majority and think both sides suck.
I just think we should fix all the problems. Hot takes like this are why you should elect me!
Yeah ok, but highschool boys are fucking dumb as shit too. It’s probably the same bunch of idiots that followed Andrew Taint
I mean that’s the problem, isn’t it? What is it about these assholes like Tate that appeals to young men?
Power fantasies.
The same thing fascism seemingly has to offer: easy solutions to complex problems.
I’m not saying (especially white) young men are treated unfair but as one myself it’s easy to come to the conclusion as you do feel a rift between fulfilling conservative societal norms you grew up with and learned from your elders for which isn’t really a space left anymore except of conservative circles so you do kinda feel like being privileged is a burden because you think you have to fulfill more expectations than other groups and I think there’s a lack of addressing this in public discourse without simply demonizing young males for trying to find their identity in a way that also includes a healthy relationship with one’s own masculinity. If you discuss this I feel like you’re quickly drifting into incel and alpha bullshit territory because they’re the only ones addressing those problems but of course they don’t offer actual solutions because that’s not really part of their business model.
It’s important to recognize that fascists are not evil comic book villains. If you are a member of their ethnostate they will come off quite pleasant. They will say “You are beautiful, you are kind, you are wise. We are building a utopia and we’d like you to join us.” Then eventually they will say “We cannot build a utopia because they stand in our way. They are ugly, they are cruel, they are stupid.” And then before you know it you are building gas chambers.
It’s also fun to be in a group and authorian regimes usually have nice aesthetics. It can be very tempting when a group includes you and you think you’ll have a purpose as a human being by joining.
Maybe we should found a fascist group just without the fascism and it’s including for everyone where everyone dresses nice and we march together and some guy holds energetic speeches about random stuff like that one time his dog ate an entire birthday cake and there’s a specific greeting we use.
Unfortunately fascism can’t actually work without an “other” to be a scapegoat. Fascism frames history as the struggle of an infallible ethnostate towards prosperity. Therefore any imperfection in the state is the result of the influence of “others” working against the state. Without an “other” fascists would actually need to take responsibility for society’s shortcomings.
aw hell, uniforms by Hugo Boss?
I understand that self identification is more convenient than a list of policy questions, but I kind of wonder how many of them count as conservative by the standards of twenty years ago, or even by the standards of people twenty years older than themselves
Do these conservative teenagers believe that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry? That a war against Islam is a good idea? That wives should submit to their husbands?
The conservative platform in the US doesn’t exist. At this point, conservative is a bucket term for, “not progressive.” Most conservatives are on the right, but not all. Most conservatives are Republican leaning, but not all. Most conservatives are opposed to socially progressive change (e.g. expanded LGBT rights) but not all.
Basically any policy position you could point to will fail to capture a significant number of modern conservatives.
I had a young woman, maybe 17 last semester, turn in a paper --it was a 12 page research/argumentative paper about why gender complementarianism (ie woman and men have different, distinct roles with men at the top). She’s a good student, a good writer, but literally she’s heard this set of morals from the pulpit her whole life… So like… Yeah. I read another young man’s paper where his takeaway from 12 Years a Slave was “wow, not all slave owners were abusive monsters–some were pretty kind and treated their slaves like family.” The kids are as alright as the rest of us are.
The rate of girls identitying as liberal is significantly higher and unlike the conservative boys, the rate hasn’t started dropping off. Probably because the girls face actual threats to their freedoms, while the conservative boys’ complaints are about a bunch of imaginary nonsense.
But of course it’s boys who get the headline. The hill is a right wing dumpster bin.
while the conservative boys’ complaints are about a bunch of imaginary nonsense.
The verbalized complaints, yes.
The passive misandry that’s pushing boys right is a very real thing.
Please define passive misandry
A dismissal or lack of consideration for the unique issues facing men and boys and the unique solutions they require. Focusing exclusively on women and girls. Viewing boys as defective girls.
In this thread, here’s a few specific examples
Let’s use their own “reports” to show those women that their boyfriends/husbands/fathers think they own them.
The rate of girls identitying as liberal is significantly higher[…]Probably because the girls face actual threats to their freedoms, while the conservative boys’ complaints are about a bunch of imaginary nonsense.
I was a “Fox News”-viewing turd in high school, too[…]then I grew up.
It’s passive because it’s not direct and focused. It’s more neglect than abuse. Men’s problems are not just secondary; they’re not even worth consideration, and men should just Fix It Themselves.
Schools in particular are extremely geared towards focusing on girls and their successful development.
Yeah, I’m not buying it. The Patriarchy is real, and whatever imagined neglect you think is happening is so far removed from the reality of what women have to deal with all day every day that it’s laughable. Won’t someone think of the poor dominant class?
Conservatives are thinking of them. They’re the only ones, apparently. Is it any wonder that’s where their allegiance goes?
“Haha, fuck you and everyone like you” is a terrible way to persuade people to your side.
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Won’t someone think of the poor dominant class?
12th Grade boys are a dominant class? Not only is that statement totally lacking empathy but its also ignoring the evidence that Girls now graduate High School and College at rates well exceeding Boys. If there is a dominant “class” for the 12th Graders it’s Girls and not Boys.
Talking about the issues women and girls face is not an attack on men and boys.
Talking exclusively about the issues women and girls face is, though.
Why? Following your logic it would also be sexist against women to write an article or start a discussion without addressing women’s issues as well. Wouldn’t it also be racist and ableist if you don’t talk about the issues minorities face? Don’t you see how this doesn’t make sense?
It’s not discrimatory against all other “groups” if you bring up the issues of one group.
What male -specific rights are currently threatened or actively being removed?
WTF does that matter? Are you seriously making the argument that the only people who matter are ones whose rights are threatened?
Attitudes like this are the reason the alt-right is rising in this country. Good grief there’s so many opinions in here that are just rank, literally stomach turning.
Several boys only organizations or programs have changed to accepting all genders. Meanwhile, most girls only organizations or programs have remained girls only.
This is right wing nonsense right here ^
What you just said (even if it were true, which I don’t actually believe to be the case) what you said is NOT-infringing on anyone’s rights.
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So what? That has nothing to do with anyone’s rights. Girls are facing having their body autonomy stripped away and the best you can come up with for boys is that they don’t have boys only orgs at school anymore?
Conservatives are so fucking soft.
Recess. Unstructured outdoor play including monitored roughhousing.
lol what are you smoking? Recess hasn’t gone anywhere lmao. In fact, I fucking wish I had as cool of a playground for recess as my nephew does when I was a kid. Shit’s fancy as fuck, all kinds of monkey bars, rock walls, a puke-a-tron that puts the merry-go-rounds of old to shame, etc… Mind you, he goes to school in a super liberal school district of an already very liberal state. The park district playgrounds have gotten way cooler too, one of the playgrounds at my local park has a fucking zipline now.
The fact that fucking recess is the best you could come up with, and it’s just blatantly not even fucking true, says it all.
Also, girls like outdoor recess too, MORE so than boys, actually, in my experience. What a weird thing to gender.
in my experience
We can trade anecdotes (and insults) all day long and none of it means a thing. You asked for a specific example and I gave you one. Just the first one off the top of my head. Schools in my area are canceling unstructured outdoor play time, which hurts boys more than girls.
Here’s one you’re probably more familiar with, since it’s nationwide: men being pushed out of careers in education.
I’m sure you’ll just move the goalposts on that one too though. “Ah but it’s not GOVERNMENT doing it so it doesn’t count!” or “I know a male teacher so it doesn’t count!”
The gender performance gap in primary and secondary education is, however, well documented, with girls outperforming boys to a statistically significant degree in ELA across the board, but with variability from school district to school district in math. Interestingly, boys tend to outperform girls in math mostly in higher income school districts, suggesting that two things can be true at once: patriarchal attitudes around boys and math performance can and do persist, mostly in white bread communities, AND, the educational system as a whole may be failing some boys, mostly in lower income communities.
Where the discussion gets gross, of course, is where MRA types use these statistics as a justification for misogyny, or on the flip side where those sensitive to that go out of their way to wave stats like this away, sometimes even making a ‘boys will be boys’ argument that is historically problematic for completely different reasons and in the end amounts to blaming the kids for the problem.
Again, two things can be true at once - society is still male dominated and victimizes women in many facets of life. At the same time, the little boys struggling at school … mostly in poor neighborhoods … aren’t the root of the problem, and certainly aren’t the ‘dominant class’ referred to above. The conversation should not be a zero sum game where recognizing the challenges of one group means you are trivializing the challenges of another.
(Though in fairness many do try to make it thus, so the caution is understandable).
It’s almost like he’d been told the opinion he was supposed to hold and then had to frantically explain why when someone finally asked him.
Lol recess is a right now?
Do you have kids? I do. My boy has more than enough unstructured outdoor play and comes home scraped up all the time. I’ve volunteered as a lunch / recess monitor. They’re doing just fine and doing young boy things.
Good anecdotal evidence, the numbers are against you
Did you know that we currently still have almost exactly the same school form that we had when school was for boys only? It was literally designed with only boys in mind. That the sexism girls face, which makes them more compliant and more pleasing for teachers, is now seen as an attack on boys is hilarious. When you want them to be equally liked by the teachers you will have to punish boys as much as girls for being rough. You have to encourage boys as well to stay clean, play domestic shit indoors and care more for their social appearance. Because that’s what giving girls their current “advantage”.
It’s just journalism in general. “Girls are liberal” is pretty much a non-story, it’s expected. You don’t publish those.
“High school boys are becoming more conservative” can be seen as surprising by many, and thus newsworthy.
This is definitely right-wing trash. However, we should be using headlines like this to fire up the country. Everyone knows that “republican” men think they have the last say about reproductive rights. Let’s use their own “reports” to show those women that their boyfriends/husbands/fathers think they own them.
That’s a little bit sexist
while the conservative boys’ complaints are about a bunch of imaginary nonsense.
Ah yes, the education gap is imaginary nonsense.
Are you hearing yourself? Because what you’re saying is not only gross but grossly dismissive. Be better.
Oh shit an education gap? Better attack minorities, take away women’s rights, burn a bunch of books and accelerate full speed into the brick wall of climate change.
The reality is that conservatives aren’t trying to address any actual problems facing young men, they’re just trying to turn their disillusionment into votes and gun sales.
Calmly approach anyone in the education sector with this study, without the “nobody cares about men anymore!” theatrics and you’ll have millions of people – mostly “leftists” – with thoughts on how to improve things.
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Yeah that’s why they’re always pushing things like “a higher minimum wage (but only for women and minorities)” and “universal healthcare (and by universal we mean just women and minorities)”.
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And who votes against it?
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But of course it’s boys who get the headline. The hill is a right wing dumpster bin.
Flaming dumpster bin!
Makes sense to me. Treat whole groups of people as your enemy and find out that people don’t like you very much.
Are you saying that teenage boys are actually being targeted by “other” groups? Is this happening outside social media? Is this actually happening at all or is it just rhetoric the manosphere is spewing?
But who is talking to the boys, but the manosphere?
Wth is a manosphere? Sounds like a cool name for a gay nightclub tbh
Wikipedia has a complete page on Manosphere, but it’s people on social media promoting toxic masculinity, like Andrew Tate or Steven Chowder. Roited out fuckheads giving young boys wrong, but easy answers about why it’s not their fault they can’t get a date.
You know, I’m glad I’m unplugged from all that crap. I just know Andrew Tate from Peppa Pig fame https://youtu.be/D704yO4wd9Q and something about scams and human trafficking.
I actually liked the old 4chan days when it was understood that everything you saw there was some level of retarded and that if you believe stuff you saw on there, then you’re stupid.
Old 4chan was great because their version of rule 1 and 2 ment that everyone understood that what happened there didn’t apply to irl shit. It’s where you went to be the weirdo you couldn’t be during the day.
After the news cycle started saying that real nazis were on 4chan, the real nazis started showing up.
The media was the cancer that killed /b/ all along
Makes sense to me too: a bunch of self-absorbed, uneducated, man-children lashing out with impotent rage as contrarians just to feel important and relevant. Source: me. It was me. I was one of those man-children.
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relevant video: The Alt-Right Playbook: How to Radicalize a Normie
Maybe kid watching too much Andrew Turd or Lobster cult? That’s why de-platforming is so important. These people are genuinely harmful to the world.
Grifters are a symptom, not the cause. I agree with getting rid of them, but more will follow.
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I’ve been a pubescent young man once and we have all been idiots laughing at stupid shit, trying to be edgy. I guess that number will change once they’ll get more mature.
College (if they go), is when these boys pulled out of their comfort zone and thrown into a huge mixer with a huge variety of new people and ideas. I imagine there’s a reason they only see this trend in “high school boys”.
That’s when I went from being conservative to liberal, for sure. Still moving further left, 10 years later.
Colleges are also seeing less men succeed in the environment. Men are struggling in the classroom and with mental health.
I think we all agree young people are getting a shitty deal with today’s society. It’s hard to think positively for them.
@Kata1yst @trashhalo @VanillaGorilla Yep. Hence why conservatives keep calling college “woke” and “liberal indoctrination.” Funny how reality and not living in denial makes people more left.
Theory: Entertainment propaganda - like Fox News and (for the non-elderly) performative alt-right influencers/male-rights-douchebags - succeeds for the same reasons as addictive drugs. They introduce a quick dopamine rush of easy answers, validation, and a feeling of euphoric purpose.
This is very sad. I was in high school in the 1990s and I was hugely big mouthed left-wing boy with friends who were hugely big mouthed left-wing boys and girls. This in a small town. My graduating class was 100 or so. “most high school seniors claim no political identity” looks promising. They are looking at the landscape and saying “this makes no sense, I’m not signing up for any of this crap.” So, you know, perhaps a silver lining?
Lack of political involvement is never a silver lining. Apathy doesn’t bring about progress it brings about regression. Which is why the right is rising in numbers.
I don’t know about that. You can’t really say what the future holds unless you have a magical crystal ball or something. I take that type of answer as legitimately confused on the part of the respondent. I didn’t exactly say it was a good thing, just that there is hope. They could eventually wind up one way or the other. Time will only tell. I like to be optimistic and hopeful. It keeps me alive.
