I feel like a lot of replies here have the same “every live is precious and needs to be protected at all costs”-vibe as you get with a lot of anti-abortion arguments.
You are casually ceding the “not wanting people to kill themselves” ground to the right while also allowing them to paint themselves as caring about human lives when in reality they just want to control women’s bodies and protect fetuses, not people.
“Every life is valuable” is obviously a left-wing stance because the left are the ones who actually care about people’s lives, even when they’re disabled, downtrodden, and painted as burdens on society.
I have no clue why you’re trying to push my argument into a political direction.
Is abortion not a political issue? What do you mean by that?
It is a political issue because people want it to be one. My comment was about the way the arguments sound, not about what political side says what.
Well, I was trying to push it in a political direction because I don’t like my beliefs being compared to anti-abortionists based on vibes and appearances. It’s necessary to engage more critically with the issue to demonstrate that any apparent similarities are just superficial.
There is no objective division between political and non-political. This is a question about government policy on which people are divided, so to me it’s inherently a political issue.
I don’t know what to tell you. It seems to me like you’re critical about assisted suicide but are pro choice when it comes to abortions.
In my opinion those two things are different sides of the same coin. Regardless of politics.
I don’t believe that they are different sides of the same coin. I see very little in common between the two.
From my perspective, it would be like saying opposition to war or the death penalty is just like being opposed to abortion, because anti-choice people claim to value life.
Oh right wing def feel every life has value.
Just less value then everybodies right not to be forced to pay for them.
They are fairly open about the value of a states non right to force an indevidual to fund anothers life. Being more important then anything.
That the value for all lives is based on either an indeviduals ability to self support. Or other indeviduals willingness to offer charity.
It is forced charity usinging the states ability to use violence they consider a greater crime then any % of society not wanting to support the lives of those in need.
Its not value or no value. But priority of those values that differs.
IE states using its same power of violence to kill forign people who might disagree with the state. Can be argued with no worry about the value of those actions. They have no issue with not choosing to fund defence or the actual state ability to use violence to enforce its laws.
Just the state taking money via potential force to provide life to US citizens in need.
Exactly. If we’re talking about vibes, seeking to normalize suicide for people with disabilities gives me the same vibes as far-right eugenics stuff.
Ill say one thing. As some one with disabilities. While i have no desire myself. Heck my life will be short anyway.
I do feel it is a right people should have.
It just really requires a sound mind at the time of choice. And huge effort to ensure it is not a choice the paiteint is neing forced or guilted into making.
As I cant really come up with an effective and garenteed way to enforce those restrictions.
Im currently happy my natiin will not allow anyform of assisted suicide. It must be entirly at partients own control. And technocally even then its a crime. But one that xamt be punished. Where as an assistant will be jailed.
But I can hope/wish for a world where people could choose to have suffering ended without so much risk of others pushing them into it for thier ow. Reasons.
As I say its not a choice I would make. But my own health means it could be one I mY want amd need help to make in the future.
Until they are asked to do something to help, then it’s crickets
I disagree with her decision for a few reasons but I’ll defend her right to choose.
There are always going to be people who don’t want to be here anymore for whatever reason, and so the government needs to provide a humane way of dealing with these situations.
Like with abortion, access to controlled procedures with trained professionals reduces harm. Restricting access to safe procedures will cause more harm than it prevents.
Definitely sad. Possibly the wrong choice for her, possibly the right choice, but it’s her choice to make despite how I might feel about it.
“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian. “I understand the fears that some disabled people have about assisted dying, and worries about people being under pressure to die… But in the Netherlands, we’ve had this law for more than 20 years. There are really strict rules, and it’s really safe.”
She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). “In therapy, I learned a lot about myself and coping mechanisms, but it didn’t fix the main issues. At the beginning of treatment, you start out hopeful. I thought I’d get better. But the longer the treatment goes on, you start losing hope.”
After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. "I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt – I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it.
Honestly and genuinely, I’m glad to see all that she has put into this decision and glad the state is allowing it. Now she doesn’t need to cause further pain to others through a traumatic suicide and she can gain the peace she’s been longing for.
Each day, so many lives are snuffed out of existence without a second thought. She has given this an incredible amount of thought, time, and work.
Rest in peace, Zoraya. 💜
P. S. There’s thousands of live today that want to live. They don’t want to die. And yet their lives are taken away in an instant. Perhaps we should focus on saving them rather than making someone like Zoraya feel even worse.
Life’s one big experiment anyway… There is no peace.
My arguements against this are the same as my arguements against the death penalty.
People make mistakes, even those who wish to die. Im not trusting the state with the power to kill me, even if its by assisted suicide.
I only support this for people who are terminally ill and about to die.
I get where you’re going but on the other side of your fear of the state you are denied release from what could be immense suffering because the state deems it.
Body autonomy is in my opinion a very crucial part of human rights even if the decisions is ultimately a mistake. You can’t really stop people from committing suicide, all you can do is make it less humane.
I get where you’re going but on the other side of your fear of the state you are denied release from what could be immense suffering because the state deems it.
Often times its the state causing the immense suffering…
Modern psychology really misses the mark in the sense often times its just treating the symptoms so they can get you back to work as quickly as possible.
Im more interested in restorative justice with psychology, as well as treating the symptoms; we should be treating the causes too…
Body autonomy is a myth, ‘biopower’ is a concept that has been utilized since the industrial age, the role of the structres of society are to keep you healthy enough to work.
Regardless, I caveeted that yes, if you’re physically about to die and under immense suffering id support these actions. In a privatesed health system with an aging demographic though you cannot prevent abuses of power from happening with assisted suicide; family members pressuring mentally ill family members into an early suicide to remove there care burden, people doing it for inheritance, people thinking they have a uncurable mental illness when in reality the effective treatments are denied to them (I think of PTSD war sufferers denied MDMA which is proven 90%+ effective in treating PTSD who go onto kill themselves…)
There are so many ethical concerns with this stuff that only takes a little foresight to see how bad it would be in reality.
This comment should framed and hung in the office of psychologists
I’m glad she will be able to end her suffering painlessly.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A 29-year-old Dutch woman who has been granted her request for assisted dying on the grounds of unbearable mental suffering is expected to end her life in the coming weeks, fuelling a debate across Europe over the issue.
Zoraya ter Beek received the final approval last week for assisted dying after a three and a half year process under a law passed in the Netherlands in 2002.
Her case has caused controversy as assisted dying for people with psychiatric illnesses in the Netherlands remains unusual, although the numbers are increasing.
An article about her case, published in April, was picked up by international media, prompting an outcry that caused Ter Beek huge distress.
“I knew I couldn’t cope with the way I live now.” She had thought about taking her own life but the violent death by suicide of a schoolfriend and its impact on the girl’s family deterred her.
“I was on a waiting list for assessment for a long time, because there are so few doctors willing to be involved in assisted dying for people with mental suffering.
The original article contains 837 words, the summary contains 180 words. Saved 78%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I feel sorry for her partner watching your loved one die is fucking brutal.
Hope they get supported in the aftermath.
She is really pretty, and it’s sad she wants to go. However, I believe in personal agency, and if she wants to go, let her fucking go.
It is so bizarre to me that regarding an article about a woman who wants to die because of constant mental anguish, the very first thing you felt was worth saying is “she is really pretty”.
If I’m being perfectly honest, I don’t entirely know my own point, I just had to comment on it because it stood out as do bizarre to me.
Bro’s really doing the “nooo don’t kill yourself your so sexy aha” meme
It is an odd and unfitting statement, but the feeling is genuine and not raw sexual desire. It is easier to relate to good looking people than ones with disfigurement. Some Special Books By Special Kids thumbnails gross me out brutally, even if it is not something I want to happen.
Idk, i am torn on this. Obviously people have had depression with suicidal tendencies since the dawn of humanity, but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems. I am Zoraya’s age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade. Euthanisia should be available to anyone with a terminal condition, but she still has her whole lofe ahead of her. It saddens me that the state has decided it is better to let her have a painless suicide rather than address the issues that make her life no longer worth living. To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless, but that is the society we have collectively decided we want to live in.
I’m glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.
I have no doubts about her sincerity to die. I just think that a better society would have been able to find her a reason to live. She is absolutely in the right here, and has done nothing wrong. It’s her government which has failed her.
Why are you assuming that her mental situation developed as a result of society or “the government”? The article mentions that her conditions are chronic and started developing in early childhood. People can have mental conditions without any particular external trigger.
I read somewhere that we have way more suicides in general than before. That seemed plausiblevso I didn’t look it up proper. Also, whatever her problem is, that’s not what assisted suicide is for , she is abusing the system. The backlash from this improper use will impede access for the people who really need it.
She’s run out of treatment options and is still symptomatic to the point that her quality of life is severely diminished.
It wasn’t an overnight decision and has been reviewed by multiple medical teams, over 3 and a half years. All stated in the article.
the backlash from this improper use will impede access for the people who really need it
You aren’t her or any of the multiple doctors that have evaluated and tried various treatments with her. If you want to get into research and help look for cures for the vast, vast number of illnesses that contribute to people seeking this treatment, please do. Or help advocate for more money being funneled towards healthcare (including for education and training), cuz from what I understand there’s not a single country or healthcare system that has adequate resources to help everyone just in terms of the number of people available to provide what treatments we do have
She has trauma, according to the article. Most traumas are largely systemic issues that have been improperly handled.
Fair enough — though the trauma is also just one of the named conditions, and we have no idea what that trauma was caused by.
Depression and anxiety are also heavily influenced by societal conditions. She would probably still have to deal with these issues but to a much less QoL damaging extent under a more humane system.
but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems
This is something you should probably confirm and not decide on gut feeling
I am Zoraya’s age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade.
Depression is not a binary thing… it’s not like you have it or not… most people “feel blue” every so often and that is mild depression… some people are rendered catatonic and can’t bring themselves to go to the bathroom so they soil themselves… that is also depression but a much more hardcore case… comparing whatever you have vs whatever this person you don’t know have (not counting they mentioned Zoraya suffers from other mental health issues as well) is not right… it could be like me comparing the salty burger I had the other day which I didn’t like vs the literally rotten food being served to inmates in Murica.
To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless
So you ARE comparing the salty burger vs rotten food on the same level…
I’m glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.
Again you double down on the notion that “her depression is just sadness, have you tried smiling today?”. Also, this is not her only option, this is the last option after a decade of trying other options
What leads someone in her situation to decide to go down the euthanasia route rather than regular suicide which doesn’t need any approval?
It’s a morbid thought but euthanasia approval seems like it could often be a slow drawn out process, and someone able-bodied wouldn’t necessarily need it.
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making someone else do it because although you want it done, you can’t bring yourself to do it when the time comes
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making someone else do it because you don’t want to fuck it up and deal with the rather significant aftermath after waking up 3 hours later with only a pumped stomach
Plus, gathering from comments about the article cuz I’m lazy, but I gather (and empathize) there’s the added benefit of giving any loved ones time to prepare and say their goodbyes without potentially traumatizing anyone that might find you after
Quick edit someone else commented the same thing literally right below 😶🌫️
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For me I don’t want someone to have to find me and deal with the aftermath. I’d much rather it be a planned thing so no one else has to suffer just because I needed to end it all. Unfortunately I’m in a country where that’s not possible so when the time comes I need to go deep into a forest or something.
This is mentioned in the article. She chose euthanasia because someone she knew growing up committed suicide and she saw how it devastated the family.
Also I imagine the anxiety about messing up without professional expertise would be awful. Plus worrying about legal repercussions for any assistance. Etc. etc.
Its still suicide.
Again, no, it’s assisted death. Quite different.
This is the best “treatment” a capitalist shithole can give for mental health.
We live in a dystopia
Even in a utopia, some people wouldn’t want to live anymore. And it should be their legal right to end their lives painlessly at the time of their choosing.
What are you calling a capitalist shithole exactly? The Netherlands?
I’d say yes. Because it is.
Shithole no, capitalist very much so.
They did sort of invent it.
I swear to god, if the aliens flew by and nuked half of the globe, you fuckers would rebuild society and mass media for the sole purpose of blaming capitalism.
It’s more profitable for the capitalists.
You think a communist doctor could fix her? They were out of posible treatments, this isn’t about money.
I’m against it. Not sure what else to say.
Her life is not your choice though. Thankfully.
Cool. Don’t do it yourself then. Not sure what else to say.
None of us signed up for this shit.
I truly mean this in good faith: you would honestly rather that she continue suffering?
Why?
Thats fine to have your opinion as long as youre not stopping someone else from doing what they want with their own life
Actually I’m going to go prevent a young person from killing themselves, just to watch you cry.
You’re the person who would force a baby to be born and live a life of pain, suffering, and burden on those around them instead of abortion. You’re not saving a life, you’re destroying them.
Answer me this, why? Why are you against it?
This is more of an anti-natalist position than a pro-choice one. The right to bodily autonomy includes the right to reproduce, even if you think the parents are too poor. The two situations aren’t comparable because one involves a person making a decision about a fetus, and the other involves the life of a full-fledged human being.
The right to bodily autonomy includes the right to reproduce
It also includes the right to end your own life. Are you against bodily autonomy?
If someone walks into a hospital and says they want to inject bleach into their veins to cure COVID, is that still covered under bodily autonomy?
She didn’t want to cure Covid in a hospital, she wanted to end her suffering by ending her life in a dignified way.
So are you against bodily autonomy?
Nobody is forcing anyone to abort a pregnancy? Those are simply options for parents to take if they want to.
So is this option to die with dignity when life is suffering.
Where is your attorney badge, for you clearly missed your appointment.
People have the right to have children, regardless of if the circumstances they’ll be brought up in are up to your approval. To say they shouldn’t have that right is not pro-choice, it’s anti-natalist.
Yes and who denies them having children?
And you achieve what? A person to constantly suffer, for what? Your righteous high ground? You condemn that person to torture, you realise that right?
I think the question is one of balance for me personally. Where do you draw the line?
Like, this person seems to have been in a pretty long queue and had a lot of time to evaluate, but is that denying her dignity? Should there be a waiting period, or is that denying someone healthcare?
I think we would all agree that we shouldn’t allow an 18yo who just broke up with their first SO to decide to have a doctor help them unalive themselves, right?
Is the three and a half years of waiting and treatments that this woman has undergone too much? Not enough?
I’ll admit that it feels bad to me to allow a 29yo to go down this particular path. People who are seeking death are rarely in the kind of headspace where I think they are able to meaningfully consent to that?
And this feels meaningfully different than the case of a 90yo who’s body is slowly failing them. This is an otherwise healthy young person.
Idk, there are no easy answers here. Bodily autonomy is important, but so is helping people not engage in extremely self destructive behavior. If we didn’t have that imperative, fire departments wouldn’t try and stop people from jumping off bridges, right? Where is that line? I don’t know, and I wouldn’t want to have to make that call.
I share a lot of your questions about this, but the following parts made me uncomfortable agreeing with you:
People who are seeking death are rarely in the kind of headspace where I think they are able to meaningfully consent to that?
And this feels meaningfully different than the case of a 90yo who’s body is slowly failing them. This is an otherwise healthy young person.
She has the following to say about that: “People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting.”
Mental illness is an illness, and can be chronic and progressive. They can cause someone to be unable to carry on living, maintaining a livelihood, afford their own medication, psychiatric visits and therapy that they would need to even want to live in the first place. That’s not even to go into the absolute hell people in such situations can go through everyday.
We can debate on what constitutes “a well-thought-out decision that takes into consideration every available option” and I would actually say that one should give those options a try, but to deny that a mentally ill person can make their own EOL decisions makes me terribly uncomfortable.
In my opinion, sure, there should be a waiting period, to filter out those chronic episodes that lead to spur-of-the moment impulses, or decisions that are strongly linked to temporary conditions. This waiting period can be used to think things through, prove that they’ve tried means available to them, or even give them the chance to try the means they wouldn’t have had access to otherwise (like specialized help, therapy that wouldn’t have been available to them, etc). Now, I think what happens next is up to these medical professionals: do they deem one’s condition to be intractable and no amount of medication and therapy and counseling can make a difference? If they deem the situation to be hopeless, and the patient agrees, then yeah, the patient can make their exit. Otherwise, the medication, therapy, counseling or whatever it is that they’ve been trying should continue. If funds are needed for this to continue, then so be it. Those people who want to be no exits can be counted upon to fund this, right? Those people denying exit should put their money where their mouths are.
If signing up to an EOL waiting list could be the way for people to consider their situation and try out things that might help them, then so be it.
Oh, sorry, I’ve been rambling. My point is, yeah, there should be a waiting period that would double as a chance for people to get the help they need (but don’t have access to or maybe the motivation to). And more importantly, that anyone, and I mean anyone (okay, there’d be a triage system in place, but just allow everyone in, and sort them out once they’re in) can sign up.
The way I imagine things would go is I can just walk into some office, inform the person in the counter that I want to have a passport to neverwhere, and they’d ask me to file some paperwork and after a few days, I’d be in a clinic where someone would perform a psychological check-up on me, and do some interviews. Then after a few more days, some doctor will be informing me of my diagnosis and options—or perhaps just flat out saying I’m completely mentally healthy and my petition is denied (if I’m lucky maybe given a list of people to contact to help with my problems). If I’m continuing the process, then I’d choose which option I want, go with the treatment or other, and like, hopefully continue until I can manage my situation with minimal help!
Do we really need people to sign up for a passport to the great beyond just to get the help they need? No, in an ideal world, there shouldn’t even be a need for this. But in this kind of world we live in, I think allowing people to safely cross the streams with dignity and peace of mind (after giving it a good try, and concluding that it really can’t be helped) is a small kindness society can give to the suffering.
EDIT: Some proofreading.
See, I feel like your whole post could be summarized as, “some people’s mental illness makes them unable to work and earn money, so they’re too poor to afford treatment, and therefore the morally correct thing is to just let those people kill themselves.”
And while I don’t think that’s exactly what you meant, it’s how it comes across. Almost all of your points are some variation of who’s gonna pay for their treatment and take care of their physical needs.
And I would strongly argue that the answer is instead to have more robust social safety nets to cover those needs. Allowing people to kill themselves as the solution is hella dystopian.
But, I’m not saying that this is 100% always right. This is a hard issue with no clear answers, and I am absolutely not minimizing the pain of mental illness. My point is that mental illness is much less understood than physical illness, and I wouldn’t trust any diagnosis that said the condition could never be resolved. In the same way that I would be loathe to euthanize someone with a physical illness that has an acceptable chance of being transient, I’m loath to do the same with most if not all cases of mental illness. Especially if the person is otherwise very young/healthy.
And while I don’t think that’s exactly what you meant, it’s how it comes across. Almost all of your points are some variation of who’s gonna pay for their treatment and take care of their physical needs.
Indeed, that’s not what exactly what I meant. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
My main point can be summarized in that second to the last paragraph, which I doubt has communicated things adequately.
To reiterate: it won’t be initiated by the medical professionals. They’re simply there to ensure that someone applying for this procedure are indeed “proceeding of their own accord and have made sure options have been considered”. The waiting period is there to make sure that not only they’ve arrived at this decision after careful deliberation, but also to force them to consider and try out the options available to them. The process can be terminated at any point by the patient, and the final step will not proceed without their permission.
My point is that mental illness is much less understood than physical illness, and I wouldn’t trust any diagnosis that said the condition could never be resolved.
I accept this point. This is why I put the emphasis on the decision of the patient. And this is where I think our positions fundamentally differ. Promising treatments may or may not be there, may or may not be there in the immediate or far future, but it’s on the patient to consider. The medical professionals are there to ensure that the patient has considered available options, and have exerted reasonable effort to improve their situation. Whether or not the patient has made “the correct decision” isn’t the point—but rather whether or not the patient has made an informed and well-thought-out decision.
I share your opinion that in an ideal world, this shouldn’t even be needed. That even though the option would be there for anyone to take, no one will take it in an ideal world. But we are not in such an ideal world. We can strengthen our social safety nets to help people suffering from the debilitating effects of mental illness (among other sources of suffering), and that will do a lot of good, but until we arrive at a society which no longer needs a dignified exit because no one ever wants to exit, I am of the opinion of giving them that option.
I’m not against it but I upvoted you because I think you have a fair position and expressed it honestly and in a completely reasonable way.
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Let people be free.
And healthcare is for everyone. The means are healthcare in this case. And social & cultural support helps.
