- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
The Federal Trade Commission narrowly voted Tuesday to ban nearly all noncompetes, employment agreements that typically prevent workers from joining competing businesses or launching ones of their own.
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Holy shit, I had to sign one for my current job
I’ve had one in previous contracts. I smirked since they aren’t applicable in my country unless they are willing to pay me to vacation.
ive signed one for every job I’ve ever worked, I think. UK and USA, employment and contractor. And then hopped competitors and to my knowledge no one even so much as raised an eyebrow.
If you were as confused by this as I was:
Shortly after the vote, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce said it would sue the FTC to block the rule
The US Chamber of Commerce is a right-wing lobbying group for businesses, unrelated to the US Department of Commerce which is an actual government agency.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Chamber_of_Commerce
What gets me is how controversial things like this are in the US. Non-competes are antisocial, because they blunt one of the few mechanisms capitalism has to keep employers in check – labor market mobility. One of the things that’s supposed to make capitalism kind of okay is the fact that “if you don’t like it, you can go elsewhere.” Well, if you’re not allowed to start a business or get another job in your line of work for like years after you leave, how the hell are you supposed to actually do that? How does the labor market route around bad employers when workers are literally trapped?
Way I see it, a non-compete is just an employer’s way of telling you they’d keep you trapped in a box in your off-hours if they could.
Is it controversial? The only support I’ve heard for them comes from corps, sleazy executives looking to control their employees. Everyone else is like”meh, clearly unfair and should be illegal but I can’t do anything about it and still have a job”
From the article it’s getting very heavily opposed by the chamber of commerce, so
Maybe not controversial among, like, people, but
Another commenter in this thread noted that the chamber of commerce is just a right wing lobby group, completely separate to the department of commerce. Not sure if you know that already, but I think it basically aligns to the view of the comment you replied to.
Yeah. Mine did too, in that they’re not, like, people. But it’s controversial as far as lawmakers and judges go
I think my point was that the chamber of commerce are not lawmakers or judges, but people representing corporate interests
Gotcha, yeah. I get that. They’re just lobbying the lawmakers and cetera, causing controversy.
Unfortunately, there is a strong implication in American culture that your worth as a human being scales directly with your productivity + net worth. Rich people are intelligent and to be admired
Now take all that stuff that you pointed out as bad, and add on the fact that your healthcare typically comes from your employer too!
You probably don’t even need me to tell you that the right wing media in this country would immediately kick into gear and start programming their base to hate the idea of labor market mobility and the market routing around bad employers. Those people ARE the bad employers!
Before long they’re going to start floating some modern version of an indenture contract for service workers and arguing for the reinstatement of serfdom.
Oh yeah, and they would be going for it right now if they thought they could get away with it.
I mean, how could you not appreciate your employer-provided housing and convenience stores? They’re right next to where you work. You don’t even need a car!
My country has non-competes in the most sensible way: if you don’t want the employee to go to a competitor, you must pay him what he could earn at the competitor during the duration of the non-compete. Employee quits? He can either join the competitor or you can pay him as long as you want him away from the competitor.
Will employers still put non-applicable non-competes? They sure do and I smile when I see those baseless clauses. Have they tried enforcing them at the “work tribunals” (free for the employee), yes they have and they’ve been laughed off by the judges.
Your country sounds great!
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Non-competes are antisocial, because they blunt one of the few mechanisms capitalism has to keep employers in check – labor market mobility
Hence the chamber of commerce threatening legal action.
If businesses can’t abuse the workers, how can they continue to set new profit records every month? Won’t someone think of the poor CEOs?
Vote went along party lines.
But MuH bOTh SiDeS, right guys?
NDA reform would be nice too
I always thought non-competes were total bullshit anyways. Like a scare tactic or something. And unenforceable.
Didn’t matter and sure doesn’t now.
I had a non-compete handed to me when I lived in California. I laughed my ass off and signed it. When I left the dumbass VP of HR threatened me with it.
My response was “Could you pretty please try to enforce it? My lawyer would absolutely love to represent me in court. FYI you know my lawyer. He was the paralegal that told you the non-compete contract wasn’t legal. You then screwed him over and got him laid him off. Guess who passed the bar exam 6 months ago!”
For those not familiar and missing context, California prohibited noncompetes prior to the federal prohibition.
They are illegal in sane countries. Sadly, my country(Russia) is not very sane, so they are only unenforcable here. At least as far as I know.
They probably were, but to find out you’d have to go to court, and your average person doesn’t want to do that.
It’s doesn’t matter if you want to go to court. Your future employer doesn’t want to go to court on behalf of a new hire, so they won’t hire you in the first place.
Well holy shit, when did they grow teeth? … and balls?
Even something positive always needs to be a backhanded compliment on lemmy
I’m sure the regulator isn’t going to be offended.
Since Lina Khan took over.
Lina Khan has balls.
Don’t worry. The supreme Court will find a reason that their existence is unconstitutional soon
that their existence is unconstitutional soon
The new rule, or teeth and balls?
The entire existence of the FTC lol.
I mean they haven’t just dismantled entire agencies yet. The closest they’ve done is lean on a pretty basic idea - the rule making power those agencies have is power that belongs to Congress and is narrowly delegated to the agencies by Congress.
This means that such agencies cannot make rules that contradict legislation passed by Congress and can only make rules within the span of things delegated to them and no further (because Congress only delegated the power that Congress actually delegated and nothing more, even if it is related or feels like it should fall under their remit based on the name of the agency). Hence why the FCC can place controls on the content of radio or broadcast TV but has no say over the content of cable TV or streaming services - their power over the former is tied to their control and licensing of the use of the airwaves as a public commons (which they were delegated pretty broad authority over) which simply doesn’t apply to cable or streaming.
Oh damn… I gotta think bigger.
Pshhh how else would Clarence scrape Harland’s balls?
Yes
In some countries this has long been handled by requiring that non-competes are only enforceable if the
employeremployee keeps on getting paid during the non-compete period.Want to restrict my freedom of trading my work, pay up!
Employee
Fixed. Cheers!
There is so no way that would happen here…
Is this what they make you sign that says
“You can’t join any company that is in the same industry or has the same customers for 2 years after leaving the present company”
?
Lol what. That doesn’t make any sense. Are you supposed to just sit for 2 years doing nothing unless you’re trained on two completely different fields?
Or sometimes, like mine, that you can’t quit your contract early to apply for a full colleague position at the company you’re being contracted out to.
IMO that should be legal, but only if they pay you your full wages for that period of time after you quit or are fired.
Let’s see how eager they are to really protect those precious company secrets.
No, that’s not enough to make it legal. I wouldn’t want to be out of work that long and potential employers would wonder how rusty I was
Yes, compensation needs to be a minimum requirement: isn’t that basic contract law? However contract law also requires that you be in a starting position to bargain or refuse and employees really aren’t: the imbalance of power is too great.
More importantly, things that block the functions of a free market like this really need to be weighed for societal good, fairness, and market efficiency. This fails all three. It also needs to be narrowly defined, because leaving it to legal action is the definition of failing market efficiency
And by full wage, it’s either the wage you had or the one you could get at the competitor. Otherwise, it’s too easy to lock people in at non-competitive salaries.
Why not both? Full wages as damages + EU-style fine of maximum between some amount and some % of global turnover. Or fixed amount + % of global turnover.
Full wages only makes the victim whole and only in financial terms. Like any other controls on the market, the financial penalty needs to exceed any benefit the corp might get out of it, then let the free market do its thing
That’s why I said + EU-style fine.
Yes.
Wow that’s actually good. So who did this, where’d they put the original people, and how can we replicate the results with every other regulatory body?
Fuck yes let’s go! I am pumped.
*So what’s the historical use of these? I can only assume in the past it was used sparingly, then went further and further until the current state of “fuck you employees”.
I asked my dad about it. He said they’ve been around ever since he started taking salaried positions (which would mean roughly since the 70s~80s)
It’s not whether or not they’ve been around, it’s how they’ve been used, how often they’ve been used, for what positions they’ve been used, how severely they’ve been used. Etc.
This is amazing! I’ve always had to be under a noncompete even though no one gives a shit about my work. So while no one would probably ever enforce it, I was always worried when switching jobs and now I don’t have to.
Would this also apply to a contracting agency that has a noncompete document that had to be signed by their contractor employees?
The noncompete is so that the contracting employee can’t end the contract early and then be hired directly by the company they were being contracted to. At least not for at least a year after ending the contract unless the length of the contract was completed in full.
Edited for clarity
Isn’t that scenario a dispute between the contracting company and its customer? How is the employee even involved? Contracting company should have a term in their contract with their company how to handle that situation
I think so, yes. If you read the actual rule (https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/noncompete-rule.pdf) it says a noncompete is something against “seeking or accepting work in the United States with a different person”. Since you’re working in the first part with a contracting agency, and then going to work with a different company, the rule seems applicable here.
I’m not sure why they use “person”, but I’m assuming your W-2 or 1099 would have different companies, and the different companies would have different presidents/CEOs/chairmen, so it would objectively be different both in the general legal Romney-style “corporations are people” person and the literal dictionary person.
I’m not sure why they use “person”, but I’m assuming your W-2 or 1099 would have different companies
Yes, those documents list the contracting agency as the company one is working for, rather than the company one is being contracted out to.
That’s exactly what a non-compete is. Your job can no longer stop you from quitting and working for a competitor.
Not a competitor, but the company you were working at with the contracting agency. Basically trying to stop being a contractor and trying to be hired directly as a colleague.
I’m not a lawyer, but I’d imagine that would also be banned. You’ll have to see if you get a notice from the agency
Of course, if the company made you sign the non-compete clause, and you try to get hired directly by the company that made you sign it, they could just establish a internal rule saying “don’t hire contractors”. Nothing is forcing them to hire you.
I think you misunderstood. The contracting agency has the noncompete clause in their contract. To prevent you from being able to cancel your contract part way through and get a real job at the company you’re being contracted out to.
Ah, like a job finding firm that sets you up, takes a percent of the pay - and if you just quit and join the company directly they loose their cut?
Yes, exactly. They have a separate clause in their contract that makes it so you can’t be hired at the company you’re being contracted to until you’re most of the way through your contract (or the company has to pay the contracting agency a decent chunk of change if they really want to hire you on early).
And the noncompete is an additional document to prevent you from just ending your contract early and applying for the real position at the company without that issue.
Basically the contracting agency trying to get as much money as possible. Even while offering the most minimum of worker benefits they can legally manage.
That’s a good question (but you might want to rephrase it to something clearer).
I think he’s asking about temp to hire, the employee being given an offer, but only if they quit and quit looking through the temp to hire agency, then get picked up by the company they were working for (before the 1 year that the temp to hire would be collecting commission on)
But I don’t have the foggiest what the answer would be
The answer is “fuck em”. If your business model requires restricting the rights of people, your business shouldn’t exist
They can still function as a staffing agency…
Basically yes but I get the impression he means more than labor or basic admin, which I’m not too familiar with. For the basic stuff I believe the company pays the temp agency a small fee. From what I’ve seen the temp agency doesn’t really care about retaining people so they just roll with it.
Basically a lot of the low level jobs are contractors. And you can eventually be hired by the company as a colleague once your contract is up. The contracting agency, however, put in a noncompete clause so that the contractors can’t end their contract early in order to apply for that company’s colleague position.
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NDA is different than noncompete. Two companies sign an NDA so they can work together for example without fear the one or the other will disclose secrete information. Same between two regular folks. Like if I’m working on some plastic gizmo and I need to have a part made, I don’t just send it out to any machine shop. I first ask them to sign my NDA so they don’t just figure out my part and start selling it under a different name. 99% of the time there’s no need, but that 1%, that’s when you could be sitting on a goldmine and you end up giving it away for nothing.
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Non-competes have been banned in California for a long time, but didn’t expect them to be banned nationwide!
