Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives. There, they will be indoctrinated by weird, stupid conservative bullshit that has nothing to do with any of this.
What is a liberal space for men? That means nothing.
Liberal, as in, believing in liberty. Freedom. How many mens spaces do you know of, where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences, about feelings they may have inside of them?
There’s actually not a lot. It’s a reflection of masculine indoctrination, where men in many places are made to feel like they almost need to be ready to become a soldier at any moment. Guarded, careful. It’s no good, unless your country is actually at war.
That has nothing to do with spaces. It’s toxic masculinity. And you combat that by being the change you want to see.
Even if there was a space like that, toxic masculinity would ruin it if it wasn’t addressed. But you might just be looking for group therapy.
So, spaces that encourage toxic masculinity do exist, and they are fully aware of their ruination. See: 4chan.org.
edit: I see some of the confusion here, since 4chan is seemingly liberal, due to having no formal rules. However, that is an illusion. A man is not actually free to say anything they like without consequences there. It’s just that the norms will be enforced by the community, instead of any kind of authority. This is not actual liberty and freedom, simply indoctrination cloaked in an illusion of freedom.
Real freedom would allow a man to express something like sympathy, or being against gamergate, and express that opinion in peace. The reality of such spaces does not actually permit this.
It seems liberal and free, but in effect it is not. This is similar to how Trump seems to be strong sometimes, but in reality is weak and cowardly. Toxic masculinity loves its illusions.
Men will blame anything else for their problems before ever admitting that toxic masculinity might be the cause of their problems
Toxic masculinity does not exist. If it does, toxic femininity also exists and is just as abundant. If you cannot acknowledge this, you have no right to badmouth masculinity as toxic.
Lol.
where men in many places are made to feel like they almost need to be ready to become a soldier at any moment.
sounds more like what would happen at a conservative place to me.
I feel you man, I know people that grew up in environments like that, and if you are not temperamentally suited for them they will chew you up.
I found it got a lot better when I moved out on my own and could choose who I spent time and who I did not. But not everyone can do that when they need the most.
Only place I feel that way is at a gay bar. But I’m gay and live in Texas. I don’t think I’m the reason for the spike.
Lemmy is pretty good, for the most part. Depends which community of course, decentralized and only loosely controlled and all.
This is going to be probably my single biggest cultural gripe with Lemmy. Lemmy (and leftist instances) as a leftist space is fine with ostracising men’s rights because feminists maliciously club it with redpillers/incels. I have been warned, ostracised, handed over multiple temp bans for “misogyny” which was merely criticising the hypocrisy of women and feminists. I never hated women, never dumped on women’s rights, always try to talk about equal treatment of men just like women and so on. And this made me conclude only one thing – to ignore and desert internet leftist social culture, if they are going to pile on all men. Not gonna get bluepilled in the name of avoiding redpill.
I read through some of your comment history and found this comment chain which I think is what you’re referring to here.
Women love psychological manipulation and think they are the hot shit, until they start going “good guy”-less by their 30s and the “beauty” starts to subside. Too much high school teen garbage, and most have not mentally grown out of it.
Even if you say you don’t hate women, it’s pretty clear you don’t like a certain kind of women, and don’t make much of a distinction between them and everyone else.
True masculinity (said by certain kind of people to be toxic) is about resilience, emotional control, inner strength, confidence and the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (dissing manhood) or abusive behaviours (psychological manipulation).
We are getting tired of hearing we are toxic, disposable and physical tools for others. And I must tell you this – the devolving and rotting feminist movement is exactly what is causing the explosion of the other extreme end, redpillers. A lot of people are starting to disapprove of these extremes.
Men are not “toxic” because they are not as emotionally charged or like vulnerability. Men are simply hardwired to be more resilient, calm, less hysterical, and protect their emotional sanctity the exact way women protect their physical sanctity.
Wouldn’t it be the truly masculine thing to do if you just didn’t take all of the accusations of toxic masculinity to heart? Shouldn’t be be using your calm, resilient, less hysterical intellect to try to understand just why so many people seem to have a problem with what you’re saying or how you’re saying it? Don’t you want to have the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (worrying about perceived threats to men’s rights) or abusive behaviours (assigning traits to a group for the actions of individuals)? I don’t want to imply men aren’t allowed to complain or have problems, but it seems you’re either betraying your ideals for what a man should be, or are trying to hold all men to an unrealistic standard.
Lemmy (and leftist instances) as a leftist space is fine with ostracizing men’s rights because feminists maliciously club it with redpillers/incels.
As far as I can tell, this paragraph is about all the actual men’s rights issues you’re talking about:
All I have seen is double standards whenever men’s issues need to be talked about versus women’s issues. Mental health issues, women pedophiles/predators versus men pedophiles/predators, or male SA versus female SA, military recruitments, physical risk jobs like ones at construction sites, women publicly allowed to get away with sexual harassment or roadside flirting, or men being called creeps for being nice to children but women are “inclusive” and never creepy, et al. And any debate is intentionally and dishonestly avoided by women and feminists on these things by clustering men’s rights with redpill manosphere movement.
which is mostly about double standards, unless you just really want to interact with children, flirt with women in public, and not feel pressured to take certain jobs. Unless your idea of a leftist is someone like Bill Maher, I’m pretty sure most leftists would be pro-(mental) healthcare, pro- equality under the law, pro-union/workplace safety, anti-pedophilia, and generally anti-war.
I never delete my comments and let the world see, so that was smart. Appreciated.
Wouldn’t it be the truly masculine thing to do if you just didn’t take all of the accusations of toxic masculinity to heart?
Don’t you want to have the ability to withstand life’s hardships without resorting to insecurity (worrying about perceived threats to men’s rights) or abusive behaviours (assigning traits to a group for the actions of individuals)?
No, masculinity being about resilience does not mean you just sit silently while people run towards you with axe and hammer. You can absolutely defend yourself and when cornered, attack when necessary. Masculine resilience does not mean you become this statue that remains so even if birds come and poop in the mouth. Eventually you will grab one bird by the neck.
Masculinity is not toxic. Behaviours are toxic, and they are not attached to masculinity exclusively. Femininity also has toxic behaviours if masculinity does. This is illogical western feminist propaganda and absolutely serves to accomplish the unspoken goal of getting “revenge” on men. Women have always been privileged in different ways than men have. It just so happens men focused on money (key form of capital) and ended up as being more advantageous. Men also have biological advantages that favour them over women.
There are agendas being pushed on the left, exactly in similar ways to the incel/redpill agendas, and I find all of them incredibly delusional and harmful to society. I love a lot of Jubilee’s Middle Ground debates on issues related to this topic, which pit leftists, centrist liberals and conservatives against each other.
My commentary is a little rough, little crude, but the meaning can be derived just fine if the context of current society is complemented. People (not you) can find semantic faults but those are not intended, and I think it can be seen I do not have ill intentions of pushing redpill bullshit onto people. I was even being labelled (Jordan) Petersonian by some person despite insisting I have never pushed his conservative talking points or wanted to.
I have never said this, but I am
a
REDACTED
and leftists disgust me with their treatment of men, just as much as toxic redpillers and rightwingers do. I have encountered radical feminists wanting genocide of men, men being called male (animal implication), hand signs for dick size, feminists saying “all men bad/die” and “men are not our responsibility”, feminists faking boys locker room chats to gain online attention and harass men, and so on, so I have zero faith in anyone, leftists or rightists. And since reactionary leftists/rightists remain terminally online and amplify their bullshit, its best to go Stoic.
This thread proves the opposite.
Lemmy is a big place. You think anywhere online is going to be perfect like your picture of heaven or something? Get real.
Are you implying liberal spaces deal with more toxic masculinity? Because that’s sounds more like conservative spaces to me. In my experience men are much more welcome to be vulnerable and talk about their feelings in liberal spaces. If you can’t find liberal spaces “where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences” I can’t help but wonder if perhaps you and your options are the intolerant ones. Tolerance can not support intolerance and liberal spaces can and should reject intolerance.
I’ve certainly seen my share of crappy behavior (up and including sexual assault unfortunately) in supposedly liberal and leftist spaces.
I don’t compare because I don’t hang out with conservatives , but every instance is one too many.
No, it is specifically illiberal spaces that encourage more toxic masculinity, in a bit of a cycle. While the space itself may be extremely liberal and rules-free, a local culture can take over and enforce those same toxic norms in place of any set of rules. And frequently does. While the space may be ostensibly liberal, in effect it is not, due to the behavior of its community.
This is the majority of mens spaces, unfortunately. Online anyway.
Can you give a few examples of what men can’t say or do completely freely in liberal places?
Sure. Go over into 4chan and try any behavior they would describe as “white knighting” or “simping”. You will rapidly experience some social consequences intended to dissuade that behavior.
Experiencing social consequences for saying something people disagree with is not infringing on your freedom. Unless they band together and try to go further than simply not liking what you have to say, how is that stopping men from saying their opinion on 4chan?
Independently, I wouldn’t call 4chan a liberal place. As far as I know, 4chan started and participated in activities in the past that go far beyond simply not liking an opinion. They doxxed, harassed and threatened people, among other things. And with support from many people on that platform.
Liberal in the traditional sense, as in, believing in liberty, I’m being technical. Not meaning “leftist” the way the word has been rebranded by right-leaners. So, their adoption of “no rules” is ultra-liberal, or libertarian perhaps.
And all social consequences are social. Drawing a distinction between legal and social is arbitrary. Suffering is suffering, and employing it to control dissenting voices is fundamentally illiberal. If you can prevent certain messages from appearing on your platform, you have successfully executed a form of control.
Thus, their ultra-liberty is an illusion. It’s not real.
The only places I have been close to that are “toxic” male places. All boys clubs, drinking clubs, rugby clubs.
But women see them as toxic and label then like that. But if you talk to them you get more toxic than from these clubs they aren’t a part of that tell you how horrible they are.
So, I’m not a woman, nor am I overly feminine, and I still call out toxic bullshit when I see it. If you want to say the problem is women/feminists though, fine whatever, if we cleaned up our own shit first, we might be able to make that stick. But when we’re bastards and they’re bitches, and we complain, we’re kinda the fucked up ones, y’know? Since we were supposed to be strong in the first place.
Unless you just think life is shit and everyone should get used to it. Then, just move to Russia or something, for everyone’s sake.
Liberal narratives paint men as aggressive rapists at worst, and toxic manipulative sociopath at best. Liberal narratives onstantly evoke “tHe pATriArcHy” and “tOxic mAsCuLinity” hiding misandry behind pseudointellectualism
While those are some examples of “liberal narratives”, there’s also a very real “men are harmed by the patriarchy too” narrative.
I see the problem you see and I agree with you about it, it’s just the narratives you’ve described aren’t the only liberal narratives.
That whole men are hurt by the patriarcy too is a cop-out when people get called out on their bullshit ideology
‘Toxic masculinity’ is referring specifically to masculinity that is toxic. It’s not referring to masculinity as a whole as toxic.
Pushes in glasses “uuum ackshually that’s not what it means”
Yeah no shit, tell that to the people on social media where the majority of popular discord takes place. And pretending that the meaning of the two isn’t obfuscated is disingenuous. At the end of the day it’s all antipositivists theory garbage that reads more like a political treatise than academic study.
Exactly. Feminist terminology like “toxic masculinity” and “patriarchy” has been very carefully chosen to be misandrist enough to result in the intended widespread popular demonization of men that we’ve seen over the past few decades, while also giving feminists enough deniability to gaslight with “that’s not what the terms ackchually mean though”.
The misandry is a feature, not a bug.
Bingo
Brosif, calling a discussion of the patriarchy misandry makes it clear you don’t know what the patriarchy even is. It hurts everyone.
This is the pseudointellectualism I’m talking about. “You don’t actually understand what it ACTUALLY means” while the meanings are clearly obfuscated for the layperson.
Brosef, the term “patriarchy” itself is (and has always been) intentionally misleading and inherently misandrist, and has played a huge role in the modern demonization of men as a result. The “academic definition” of the term is irrelevant, as the (fully intended) real world negative consequences of the term for men in the cultural zeitgeist have been systemic and pervasive, as we can see all over this thread.
No
The left is the only place that is safe to open up as a man.
The right is only safe if you fit a very specific definition of manliness, one that is unrealistic. However that illusion sends millions of the gullible and impressionable chasing after an unobtainable standard.
On the far-right you’ll get punched if you like making caramel and baking cakes. The close right just calls you a slur instead.
There are few things more alienating to the wide range of male expression than the right wing.
I grew up as a conservative and was never accepted. Opening up, being emotionally vulnerable, expressing “feminine” (ie non traditional) interests: every time it lost me any sort of male friendship. I was excluded, mocked and called homophobic slurs.
I’m a cisgender straight white man but because I was a square peg to their traditional round hole I was an outcast.
The right is the cause of male depression and loneliness. It enforces the gender norms that make men feel they have to be a rock, provide for family, die for their country, shut up about their feelings.
The only safe place for men to open up is on the left.
Starting by removing the association between masculinity and being a bigot by changing male social behavior seems to be the logical first step. The change absolutely has to come from within. Starting by not tolerating it when your buddies say bigoted shit seems insignificant but is a huge step in the positive direction, and every small change counts.
Definitely!
Gangs are inclusive and welcoming even if they haze you and commit crimes. People who feel left out gravitate toward unconventional solutions to conventional problems.
The right is the cause of male depression and loneliness
I feel you, but you should probably say “The right is the cause of MY depression and loneliness”. Different men have different experiences, and suffering doesn’t depend on whatever people perceive as “left” or “right”.
The overwhelming majority of all the right-wing men I’ve ever met have been a thousand times more miserable, angry, and bottled up than their left counterparts. The right wing inherently fosters that kind of existence with its rigidity, judgment, paranoia, and aggression.
I grant that my statement wasn’t particularly nuanced, but I firmly believe it is generally accurate for the overwhelming majority of the male population.
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Counterpoint - men need to be less hung up on gender.
There’s plenty of liberal spaces for people even if not exclusively for men.
As a guy, I don’t need a sign outside saying “Open for men” to know I can go into a store, just “Open” suffices.
While there are aspects of my life that are informed by my biology and its social construct, it’s one of the least defining aspects of who I am as a person. I don’t need it specially recognized.
I’d much rather live in a world where there’s spaces for “people who like RPGs and fantasy” or “people who like tech” over “people who identify as male.” I have a ton in common with the former two, irrespective of gender identities, and very little in common with the latter other than fairly superficial things.
“Hey, pee standing up? Me too! We have so much in common we should be friends. Oh, you want to meet up at the bar to watch the latest hockey game? Yeah, that sounds…fun…”
The very idea of a “liberal space for men” is antithetical to my sense of liberalism. We should be liberated from arbitrary notions of identity, not reinforced into them.
Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives.
I mean, they/we also could create these spaces for us, much in the same way women did (and many other groups). And of course it’s easier to fall for reactionary groups when liberal groups are less visible, but it’s still a decision to follow their bullshit.
Shoutout to !mensliberation@lemmy.ca (and similar spaces)
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist. If men wanted to start a men only club like women are allowed they would be forced to let women in. Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles) they were forced to allow girls but the girl scouts don’t have to allow boys. Males can’t have anything male only.
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist.
That’s simply not true. We have at least one counselling centre in our city that is “boys/young men only” and several “men only” self help groups. I’ve never heard them being called sexist, on the contrary people generally agree that this is a good thing and we need more of this. And they are certainly not forced to include other genders.
There are obviously not enough initiatives like these. But a blanket statement like yours is false and if you make the claim that men are regularly getting called out as sexist for forming liberal safe spaces you should provide some sources (I’m not denying that it happens, it’s just not something I’ve experienced).
Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles)
The goal of boy scouts wasn’t to provide a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions or anything like that. There was no reason to exclude other genders.
Is that the goal of girl scouts, though?
I don’t think so.
What are you trying to say? I don’t know that much about Scouting in the U.S. At least in Germany we didn’t have this gender divide in scouting, but as GSUSA were founded after the BSA I suspect that their goal was to provide scouting for girls because they couldn’t join BSA.
The other guy said men can’t have man-only spaces, referring to Boy Scouts in contrast to Girl Scouts, and you said that Boy Scouts isn’t supposed to be a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions. If Girl Scouts isn’t that kind of thing either, then that sounds like you think men only get to have that kind of man-only space, while women can have whatever.
As a man, if the only man-only spaces available were about gender identity or emotions, I’d probably go to neither. The former because I’m fully comfortable as a man (and the use of the term “gender identity” there implies it’s more for trans people,) and the latter because I don’t have significant issues with my emotions. Frankly, I don’t really mind that most of the clubs and events that interest me are co-ed, but if there was a recurring women-only Minecraft party or something and there was never one for men, I’d be upset about that.
I was saying we could create the missing liberal spaces ourselves. ThePantser said we couldn’t because we’re being called out as sexist when we do that. The only example for that being “boy scouts” which I suppose means BSA, an organization with massive sexual abuse and bullying problems (according to Wikipedia). No idea how they are supposed to be “liberal”.
Whether the girl scouts accept other genders or not has no relevance for that argument. And if it would be fair for them to do that is a completely different discussion because girls are hit by sexism in a completely different way than boys.
the use of the term “gender identity” there implies it’s more for trans people
No, it doesn’t.
if there was a recurring women-only Minecraft party or something and there was never one for men, I’d be upset about that.
And again you are completely ignoring any arguments about why these spaces might make sense.
Women get told they need there own spaces for mental health, women’s issues, to have women’s chat.
Men aren’t allowed those things. They are told they never open up, they are toxic they shouldn’t be acting x,y,z and they should be more like girls.
What you are saying is when all thr fallout occurs then they get help. You are fixing a problem when their could be a solution before it becomes a problem.
It would be great if there was mens clubs to just hang out, drink, talk, play games things like that. In fact there was and they were HUGE but men aren’t allowed them now.
It would be great if boys could have that. Almost like a girls scouts but for boys.
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The issue is that these spaces are often prime trolling grounds, and you end up having the same discussions over and over until the honest posters move on and only trolls are left.
Which is why the heavily moderated menslib sub on Reddit was so great, because they didn’t put up with that BS.
Agreed. Unfortunately, Lemmy has both design choices and cultural issues that make running heavily moderated communities essentially impossible.
Surely this is intersectional though right? Not all men are the same or have the same experience of political issues. I can see how straight white cis men might feel like these spaces aren’t for them. But queer men might feel differently about this. Black men also.
Also if you feel like existing spaces aren’t for you, then free to create your own spaces. There’s nothing holding you back.
Nearly all leftist spaces welcome straight white cis men. Anti-feminists are not welcome.
This is it.
Men underperform in things like education and work.
Who gets all the help? Women.
There is so much toxic feminism that doesn’t get attention. A male only shelter got shut down by me because the feminists protested so much until it got shut down.
There isn’t? Millions of liberal men can man just fine every day just out in public.
What are you missing?
Millions of liberal men can man just fine every day just out in public.
That is true, absolutely. And one must not diminish the situation of women under the patriarchy by any means.
Unfortunately, the patriarchy damages all of us in different ways. That does not contradict feminism but, in my estimation, completes the view of the patriarchy, it’s effects, and how we perpetuate it generation after generation. I think if we wish to be anti-sexist and pro-feminist and ever hope to abolish the patriarchy, we must understand it as fully as possible.
If you care to explore the topic further, “The Will to Change” by Bell Hooks might be worth a read.
So you don’t think there are any issues with how men are treated on the left?
As progressive as the left can be, men have been left behind and are still often expected to ‘just be a man’, while dealing with double standards and sometimes being treated like they’re inherently bad.
Edit: Copying what vzq has said to me for visibility, as this is the exact problem. Do I sound like the angry toddler in this discussion?
“I want to be treated fairly and based on how I act, and yet I don’t get that.” You are being treated based on how act. You act like a spoiled toddler that thinks he’s owed some consideration by strangers.
I believe these issues exist in some places in the world like the usa.
Personally as a cis man i dont experience these issues at all. I am more radical left leaning then my sisters.
The right just appear like some intolerant macho cult. They are the last people i would feel safe.
It has to be set though I recognize many fellow men do exhibit this weird macho psychology as well as laziness and illusion that they somehow know me or what i want. I never consider that to have political grounds.
If i have a choice to interact with either sex i am Biased to chose the women because i feel like there actually perceive and speak to me as individual rather then pretending i am their best friend cardboard cutout.
In my experience women are more honest as sales people and more helpfull as a frontdesk clerk. This is bias and exceptions exist. I myself am an exceptions. Statistical perception though…
I haven’t heard another guy talk about other dudes assuming you are just like them/same politics etc, but its something I’ve experienced a lot. I often have to break the news I’m not a safe space for whatever bs they are spewing.
No, I honestly do not. I do my level best to treat everyone as a person and when I mess up I apologize and try and do better. That works pretty well.
If you are treated like you are inherently bad, you may be not as good as you think you are.
Edit: nice edit man. Totally not what an angry toddler would do.
Thanks for proving their point lol
You just flipped blame on the individual without even attempting to understand anything about them.
I know what they type. They are responsible for that at least, aren’t they?
Thanks for proving my point, what have I said that’s bad?
I want to be treated fairly and based on how I act, and yet I don’t get that.
You’ve tried to tell me that I do act like that, despite the fact you have absolutely nothing to back that up… The exact problem.
I want to be treated fairly and based on how I act, and yet I don’t get that.
You are being treated based on how act. You act like a spoiled toddler that thinks he’s owed some consideration by strangers.
Again, just disregarding how men feel, where does that get us?
I absolutely do not act in the way that men are accused of, but blanket statements about “MeN BaD” are so frequent and widely accepted, and it’s just ignored or even praised.
Can you give a more precise example? I hope you do not mean individuals who write stuff online. In what way do left oriented organisations treat all men like they are bad?
If you are treated like you are inherently bad, you may be not as good as you think you are.
Ah, blame the victim. Men get treated a certain way so it must be their fault…
There’s no victim here. Just a guy with “feelings”.
Ahh, its you. You’re the problem.
How exactly are men treated by the left? Perhaps you can give some examples so people understand what your problem is.
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That’s not an ideology gap, that’s feminism vs machism, by the look of it.
They missed the chance to rotate these graphs vertically…
This is only going to increase as men watch their quality of life continue to degrade, while they get ignored at best and blamed for everything at worse. Many men can barely afford to live, let alone even think of the joys of previous generations such as home ownership, having a family, or travelling.
Meanwhile the news is full of victory after victory for women, so of course they’re going to support the status quo more.
Conservatism grows when people are struggling.
Many men can barely afford to live, let alone even think of the joys of previous generations such as home ownership, having a family, or travelling.
Ahh yes, because houses are cheaper for women, obviously. /s
This has nothing to do with the person being a man or woman.
Meanwhile the news is full of victory after victory for women, so of course they’re going to support the status quo more.
That “victory after victory” is in large part just women catching up to existing men’s rights.
Remember that woman who murdered her husband and got probation for it? She stabbed him 100+ times! It happened like a week ago too. I’d consider that a win for women being able to murder people, a loss for men, and a loss for that judge.
Exactly. More lenient sentencing is definitely part of female privilege.
Oh wait, no, I mean part of the horrible misogynist practice of “putting women on a pedestal”, of course. Gotta make sure that we frame all of the privilege that being a woman brings as actually just more evidence of how bad men are!
Then why arent feminists protesting for more prison time?
I will gladly support any initiative for more equality in the justice system (even though we are probably not even in the same country).
I am not aware of any initiatives, though. The conservative focus, depending on the country, seems to be on hating foreigners or banning abortions. So I am not sure why anybody would want to vote conservative if they want an equal justice system.
Just today there was a story on the front page of a male domestic abuse survivor who tried to start up a shelter for men, who eventually killed himself because he got treated like shit for it.
Now compare that to resources allocated for women victims of domestic abuse.
1 in 4 women are victims of it, while 1 in 6 men are so its not like its not a huge issue for us either. We went from a society that didnt treat abuse as an issue for anyone to one that has, yet having nothing to support us is “catching up” in your books?
I wrote “in large part”, not “always”.
Of course there are some issues where there should be more support for men. But I am pretty sure female to male domestic violence is not at the top of the list on why these people vote conservative. The conservative “solution” would be to shut down male AND female support in that regard.
Victory for women? Like how they are losing their reproductive rights and going to jail for miscarriages in America?
Correct.
Poor oppressed men. The fact that their side piece can’t get an abortion anymore must really get them down.
This. This is exactly why this stupid gap exists, because of shitty people like you.
“Treat everyone equally” except men fuck them apparently.
You’re assuming a lot things there bubba.
You were pretty clear in your comment bro. Did you mean something else and it came out wrong?
Have you considered not being a hateful piece of shit. People like you are why the blue graphs have the direction they have. You would do well to consider whether declaring half the population as evil for no other reason than their gender, can ever lead to a successful result.
There certainly is a hateful piece of shit in this thread, but it’s not me.
But I’m sure if you just keep externalizing instead of working on yourself, things will magically fix themselves for you!
What have i said to deserve your hostile response to me previously? You derided and mocked me simply for sharing how i feel on the issue, when i never said anything negative about women.
Leftism is not the status quo in the slightest. Men currently are far more privledged than women.
Liberal is not leftist.
Many men can barely afford to live, let alone even think of the joys of previous generations such as home ownership, having a family, or travelling.
this is true
Conservatism grows when people are struggling.
also true
Meanwhile the news is full of victory after victory for women, so of course they’re going to support the status quo more.
I don’t get this argument. “Supporting the status quo” is literally what conservatism is about, no?
I view conservatism more as trying to relive the past. A rose tinted one, that seems appealing to people unhappy with today.
“Supporting the status quo” is literally what conservatism is about, no?
Not when it attempts to violently overthrow the government, no. Liberal=change and Conservative=preserve status quo is outdated and no longer true in most cases/places. e.g. some say that Brexit was quite a “change” for the UK? But in any case it was most definitely not preserving the present status quo.
Mostly conservatism tries to recreate things from ~30 years ago as a nostalgic and optimistic hope that returning to the past will help overcome the current badness, e.g. as a method of combating inflation.
Except on top of it all is the difference between what is said vs. done, e.g. to return to the past economic success in the USA we’d have to increase the top marginal tax rate to 90%, but instead conservatives lowered taxes on the wealthy still further. “Conservatism” is often only the line that the
car salesmenpoliticians sell, same as “Liberalism”, for someone to get themselves into power.
I think what’s more interesting from those charts isn’t just the divergence between genders - it’s that (with the obvious exception of S Korea - what on earth is going on in that country??) men’s attitudes have slightly trended more conservative whereas women’s attitudes have radically changed to more liberal.
I don’t know how true this is. In my own experience most men I’ve interacted with in the past 10 years are more and more central and less solidly conservative over time. The trend seems to be moving towards liberal. Of course that could be where I live (suburbs in a 800K+ US city).
The graphs show that though? Most men go down to around the “0” line.
Am I reading it wrong? Down is more conservative, no?
Well yes, moderate is more conservative than liberal. The US line for men also seems to skirt around the center line, plus there’s a reason MAGA people stand a chance so it brings down the average.
I guess what I’m saying is that it would be opposite from my experience. The line would historically be below 0 for men and overtime going up toward 0.
Perhaps more men seem to be getting sucked into manosphere / alt right circles since gamergate. But the US isn’t homogeneous either.
At the same time perhaps in some circles men are coming to a better understanding of patriarchy and feminism and moving more liberal. So there is a growing divide but unfortunately in raw numbers there is a slight trend toward conservatism.
Still, I think the entire graph and the data, semantics, and methods behind it deserve scrutiny. Like, exactly what views are being considered? Are there more women becoming socialist? Or socially progressive? Or what?
Have you not noticed the rise in groups like Proud Boys, Patriot Front, and the Three Percenters? Patriot Front has people on overpasses waving signs in my area and they are in the news several times per year for marching in different cities. Just the other day they were recorded in New York City, unable to figure out how to swipe metro cards to get into the subway, so dozens of them charged on through without paying, so it isn’t like they are staying holed up in rural militia compounds out of sight. Far right extremism is both active and on the rise locally and globally.
I’ve always chalked that up to the vocal minority. I know literally no one that admits to being apart of that and just by talking to them you can pretty quickly sus out what they tend to believe politically. People love to tell you their political opinion for the most part.
Suburbs tend to be more progressive than exburbs which are more progressive than a city in Boomfuck, Kansas. I think that controlling for your personal environment might lead to a more objective perspective of the world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias?lang=en
The line is where ‘central’ is
Right but I’m saying that in the past men were below the line and are moving up.
Trump had more white female and Hispanic voters his second run than the first.
I would take this data with a grain of salt. I’m sure this is self reported yes/no or excludes political vote markers. I’m not sure how they compiled the data when it shows it was simple yes/no to am I conservative or liberal at a glance.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/30/new-trump-poll-women-hispanic-voters-497199
More info because why not:
https://www.npr.org/2021/11/09/1053929419/feel-like-you-dont-fit-in-either-political-party-heres-why
not surprising. the american right is specifically catered to address male grievances.
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Much like the left caters to women and minorities… good point.
not fix these grievances mind you, but exploit them
This data is the World world, not just “America world”.
Also, if men are going right, then the left needs to step up their offering.
“When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
Nice quote. Won’t win over men who are shifting Right because of consistent targeted alienation in involvement from the Left
If other people having rights is “targeted alienation”, then what should we call denying those people rights based on things they can’t control? Because that sounds like actual targeted alienation.
You’re straw manning here, that’s not what he said at all.
He’s referring to the knee jerk lesser treatment of men, because their men, because some other men have done bad shit. If you’re constantly grouped in with the worst of a group just for existing, of course you get sucked into that group.
Hard to Strawman, a Slippery Slope. I was merely pointing out it’s a Slippery Slope without whipping out my Fallacies.
Read my comment again, slowly. What does “alienation in involvement” mean?
If uplifting groups of oppressed people to an equal standard is alienating to you, then you are falling into the tolerance paradox, and you should probably stop that.
While this is true, it’s also true that pendulum swings can go further in the opposite direction than equality.
While a trite example, in the recent Barbie film, at the end when things are going back to the seemingly good way, the men in Barbieland ask if they can have a seat on the supreme court and are told no, which is then explained as Barbieland being a mirror to the real world such that as there’s increased equality in the real world then equality for men in the mirror would increase.
Apparently the writers weren’t familiar with the fact there’s four women on the supreme court right now and a woman has been on the court since 1981 (around twice as close to the creation of Barbie than to the present day).
Even in the context of its justifiably imbalanced equality it failed to be proportionally imbalanced.
There’s interesting research around how the privileged underestimate the degree to which the good things that happen to them are because of privilege, but that at the same time the underprivileged overestimate how often the bad things which happen are because of bias. In theory both are ego-preserving adaptations. But it also means that either side is going to have a difficult time correctly identifying equality from their relative subjective perspectives.
Correct. Why would anyone go for a worse option for themselves?
Edit: A benefit to one group does not mean a detriment to others. This is not a zero sum game.
The funny thing is that the left could offer so many things for men:
- address mental health issues
- paternal leave / support for fatherhood
- Less dangerous work
- rehabilitation in prisons
- a free lamborghini
- address homelessness
All of which are mostly men issues.
So we should just let ‘minorities’ suffer? The term appeasement comes to mind, as I don’t know what else you could be advocating here.
Why not both? Benefit to minorities and benefit to majorities.
This isn’t a zero sum game.
Let me get this straight, if you have food to survive, and someone else who doesn’t have food wants some food, not even your food, just some food, you need more food before they get any at all?
Did … did you even read my post? What is going on?
Let me re-write it using your analogy.
Why not both? Food for minorities and food for majorities.
This isn’t a zero sum game.
Why would anyone go for a worse option for themselves?
Because if everyone only voted for the things that benefit them, then it’s possible to end up in a situation that’s worse for everybody. If the majorities repeatedly votes for a small benefit to themselves and a large detriment to everyone else, this is basically guaranteed to happen. This is also why voting out of spite is a bad idea.
Example: Let’s examine a population consisting of 60% white people and 60% Christians, uncorrelated (so 36% white Christians, 24% nonwhite Christians, 24% white non-Christians, and 16% nonwhite non-Christians). This population is making two votes: one that will be Very Bad for nonwhites, and one that will be Very Bad for non-Christians, with a small benefit to white people or Christians respectively. Both will pass, which results in:
-
36% of the population (white Christians) gets two small benefits
-
48% of the population (white non-Christians and nonwhite Christians combined) gets a small benefit and something Very Bad for them
-
16% of the population (nonwhite non-Christians) gets two Very Bad results passed against them
So the overall result is negative for 64% of the population, despite everyone voting for their interests and everyone voting! This is because the legislation was more bad for the minority than it was good for the majority.
Bonus: I believe you can use this to prove that you can use a sequence of legislation to get into literally any position you want if everyone votes strictly for things that help them, and I saw a good YT video on that topic, but I can’t find it right now.
If the majorities repeatedly votes for … a large detriment to everyone else
I never argued for this. It is possible to vote in a commensalistic manner.
Only if the appropriate legislation is available to vote on. If the only legislation available is something that hurts you a little and helps someone else a lot, it may be in society’s best interest to vote for it. If you were in a culture that encouraged that, your actions would be repaid by others doing the same, eventually securing large gains for everyone. This is the opposite of my example above, but the math works out the same.
Essentially, there are situations in which the logical choice is to vote for something that hurts you, or to not vote for something that helps you. (Zero-sum-like situations are especially likely to have this occur.) Over a long period of time, what matters is how much each bill helps society overall, not how much it helps you in particular. (Yes, this stops working if the other groups won’t do the same for you.)
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Is it really worse? Or does it just hurt your feels when women can decide something on their own?
Name one thing thats gotten better for men in 50 years.
Here’s 3.
- Addressing men’s mental health. Normalizing therapy and talking about issues.
- Promoting ideals and examples of healthy intimate relationships: communication, setting boundaries, etc.
- Moving a way from the insecure, performative, fucked up version of “masculinity” – e.g. “I can’t wear pink, play with dolls with my kid, or bake because those things are feminine”.
Yeah, fuck men who want to wear blue and play with cars. Being a man isn’t allowed. Unless you accept feminization, you’re the enemy. No wonder men choose to vote for the bad guys, when the “good” side demand that they play a role as weak.
being gay is more accepted. there’s also much less pressure to conform to masculine standards. e.g., being able to talk about feelings, expressing yourself in fashion/makeup, joining in traditionally feminine careers like
nursing/teaching (both of which have exploded in the past 50 years). just to name a fewthey also haven’t used the draft in 50 yearsedit: striked through things are either factually incorrect (nursing) or more nuanced than my original comment implied (military draft)
being gay is more accepted.
Fair. A win for all.
there’s also much less pressure to conform to masculine standards. e.g., being able to talk about feelings
Not the wider experience. Men are still stigmatised for expressing themselves. Example: how often do men get to be emotionally vulnerable in a public setting compared to women?
joining in traditionally feminine careers like nursing/teaching
This is flat out wrong, it’s actually getting worse.
https://www.unesco.org/en/articles/gender-equality-and-through-teaching-profession
Sex ratios in healthcare occupations: population based study.
they also haven’t used the draft in 50 years
That’s because there are enough men who are financially destitute, who sell their lives into the military.
Don’t need a draft when there is enough blood money going around.
The fact that I can’t wear a skirt in public without facing backlash, but a woman wearing pants is seen as normal makes me feel like there is still a lot of progress we have to make. I guess it’s equivalent would be women going topless casually. I really hate conservative/puritan values.
Why do things need to get better for men? Things have been pretty excellent for men for a very very long time.
- high suicide rate
- male loneliness has always been terrible and it’s on the rise
- 19 out of 20 deaths at the work place are men
- most likely to have poor work-life balance
- most likely to be imprisoned
- most likely to be homeless
- most likely to NOT get custody of the kids they love
Pretty excellent, aye? These men just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Why not both? Benefit to women, and benefit to men.
This isn’t a zero sum game.
You’re not wrong, but the wage gap? Not going to close if we give everyone a raise. It would be the same wage gap.
The gender pay gap is insignificant and inconsequential compared to the income differences between working and owning classes. Also, much of the pay gap is due to men culturally tending to not have the option of escaping the grindset. “Honey I’m going to quit my job and do something that doesn’t alienate me, yes it’s going to pay less” is not something universally accepted by wives.
I’m pretty sure that by this point most reasonable people have realized that the wage gap is a myth, so that’s probably not your best example.
We tried that, ended up with a bunch of grifters coming in, doing a bunch of damage, and then making “why I left the left” videos.
There is a path of healing but it’s not going to happen until they address their white supremacy and take it behind the shed.
This “data” is hilarious. You should read the article it’s attached to. They throw these charts up and then just use 4 or 5 anecdotes to take a victory lap for conservatism.
I personally don’t like how the top left one starts at 2005, unlike every other graph, but they all have the same x scale. (I nitpick things sometimes)
This is an opinion piece they are really really reaching with.
Conservatives have been running this for a few days now but it just doesn’t add up. At least for the US it flies in the face of all published polling, including what they claim as sources. Unless you look at Gen Z men skewing independent and take that as them becoming more conservative because you only see the political spectrum as D/I/M.
But that’s not what being an independent means. It isn’t a party. It’s literally not having a party.
I forgot to add, there’s also the Roe effect. The overturning of Roe has pushed women left in the US.
Perpetuates the false dichotomy of a linear political spectrum of either liberal or conservative and that in and of itself is one of the reasons for these trends. Liberalism has nothing to offer men. Leftism does.
You might as well be asking men how much they are willing to sacrifice for others vs. look after their own interests. When the inequality gap widens and the majority live below average economically, don’t you think people will tend to become more selfish? That’s all these charts show.
Conservatism is essentially synonymous with patriarchy and on a very shallow level, it’s easy to see how men would choose that over the status quo. That will surely be better for men than this slow attrition of status that comes with ever increasing wealth concentration. This isn’t true but it is an obvious conclusion.
The real question, which this survey completely ignores, conveniently, is what we should all be doing together to better the status quo for all. Because I believe almost everyone except a small and shrinking fraction agrees that current trends are not working for anyone.
Perpetuates the false dichotomy of a linear political spectrum of either liberal or conservative and that in and of itself is one of the reasons for these trends
the graph explicitly takes 1 dimension of the spectrum to look at it in isolation. This is exactly what single graphs do best.
which this survey completely ignores, conveniently
have you looked at the source of the graph?
Why would you intentionally look at this complex situation in 1 dimension. That dimension being the most overplayed talked about dimension because it creates conflict between groups based on identities. Instead of looking at the actual problem that the dimension completely ignores.
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Oh good, I’m better than the average man in something.
If I am reading this correctly, men drifting towards conservative and women drifting towards liberal?
That would reflect the culture found in apps - I feel like men with andrew tate and things like truth social/rumble/kick and women drift more towards stuff like reddit/tiktok/instagram where you can usually see a lot more liberal idealogy.
Damn. The ruling class sure was successful in creating new wedges to divide their work slaves. It is not even only con and lib, there are so many more ingroups nobody needs and “sOcIaL mEdIa” is the tool to brainwash us into hating each others guts.
Is it just me or are those the typical US-centric terms! If so, I’d trust those numbers even less than I already do because they moved the timespans between the graphs.
I don’t trust numbers to gauge someone’s political stand point either
Just doesn’t seem like a good way to get useful data
It’s just you, these are bog standard political science terms.
Okay, let me rephrase that: is it just me or is the application of these terms typical US-centric? “Liberals” in Germany are definitely not the opposite of conservatives. Quite the contrary. The liberals are the go-to ally for the conservatives to form governments here.
Like, do you actually know that? You’ve said so under different comments here and you sound confident in being right, but… Could you maybe point me to where you get the ‘bog Standart’ poli science definition from? And how this applies to the terms used in the study? I’m sceptical towards the use of (only) liberal vs conservative, but would believe your take if it could be more than a convenient opinion.
