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Meanwhile, chrome and desktop apps (Electron-based) like Slack, note apps, etc, takes 1GB just to open… Well, tbh I don’t know if they really use physical RAM space, but anyway.
Yes and no.
On modern OSs, files get mapped into RAM, which is a fancy way of saying “it can stay on disk, but it can also be cached in RAM, but the unmodified parts can get discarded out of cache at any moment, and any changes go first to RAM, then get written to disk at some later time”.
The apps also use buffers to hold data, and one of the largest buffers is for the canvas or window display buffer. These have to use actual RAM while the app is running; you can only swap them out to swap/pagefile if you suspend the app… which is doable, but rarely done… otherwise they’ll get swapped back in, the moment the app needs them (which usually is all the time… but some buffers might stay mostly swapped out some of the time).
There is also RAM compression going on (at least on Windows), that can keep mostly empty and/or rarely used buffers all the time “in RAM”, but taking just a fraction of the space.
linux needs like 1gb of ram and some distros even less
Strictly speaking, “Linux” can run on 10MB of RAM or less.
Meanwhile, a single web page may need 100MB or more to build the DOM, run all scripts, and keep a buffer of the canvas.
256MB on my old NAS running OpenMediaVault.
Actually only 22% of the memory used, even while streaming audio. just the cpu fluctuates feom 0% to 70%
Looking at this prompted me to set the proper date after yesterdays reboot
My next Windows PC doesn’t need any RAM, because I’m not going to need one.
I love to bash MS, but this feels like an industry-wide trend to /never/ care about optimizing beyond the bar of “typical specs of new devices in rich countries”. I’m guessing it’s just to limit labor costs, and computers are less-rapidly-improving than the 90s/00s?
Code optimization has pretty much fallen by the way side since ram prices keep going down and cpu performance keeps improving.
Why spend the time if you don’t have to?
Browsers are some of the worst culprits.
Browser canvas is one of the worst culprits: it has to keep a buffer with an uncompressed bitmap several screens in size.
Old browsers used to keep a single screen worth of canvas buffer, then redraw stuff as you scrolled… which made it a horrible experience. You can still find some of that with “clever” web designs where they replace fonts or move things dynamically as you scroll.
Then you have websites with “infinite scroll” that just keep increasing the canvas buffer size more and more and more, to infinity and beyond… and people wonder why their Facebook or Reddit tabs use so much RAM.
premature optimization is the root of all evil - Donald Knuth
which does not excuse a total lack of optimization, but gotta hit those kpi’s
if it remember it correctly it was said in relation to algorithm optimization > code optimization
Just for the sake of a beautiful audited and blazingly fast codebase that tuns qo good that Raspberry Pi user can run your stuff too.
I love optimisation!
RAM is cheap, and even if you’re just doing absolute basic shit your current PC will work better with 16GB of RAM (also looking at you here, Apple). If it’s not a phone you’re buying don’t get anything with less than 16GB.
I’d like a phone with 16GB of RAM… using a 3GB one right now, and between a Lemmy app, a browser, and maybe some other app, it keeps running out of RAM and closing the keyboard app, which is a real nuisance.
On a phone the additional power draw of larger modules can be an issue - plus phones are designed to freeze background apps to conserve memory, so you can get away with less.
I currently have 6GB in my phone, which mostly is fine. In a few situations I’d have preferred having 8, though. 4 or less hasn’t made sense for a few years now.
Not sure how much of a difference would that make to power draw. There are already some phones with 12GB of RAM, and most of the power still goes to lighting up the screen.
My main gripe is that they all come paired with some fancy cameras which drive up the costs. I’d rather have a basic camera and even a lower resolution screen, with a ton of RAM, than the other way around.
I guess it depends on how you are using your phone. If you’re mostly using it between charges (possibly replacing other devices) it indeed doesn’t matter. If you care about standby time, or use it as music player or similar tasks more than active use it does matter.
RAM can also enter a low power mode:
A 64GB laptop configured with two 32GB DDR4 modules consumes less than 4.6 watts (W) in active mode and less than 1.4W when idle
DDR5 uses about 20% less power, so for 16GB you’re looking at less than 0.3W… likey way less, since a Samsung S24 Ultra with 12GB of RAM claims up to 95 hours “while listening to music”. That’s on a 5000mAh battery, or 18Wh, meaning less than 0.2W for “CPU + 12GB RAM + Bluetooth + storage”.
It is not just RAM. They also require special hardware/chip to run ANN
Wow! I’m surprised that everyone is so surprised. Windows resource requirements - especially the RAM - have always grown exponentially between major versions. Remember that we started with some 16MB RAM. They have consistently demanded hardware that completely obsoletes the hardware in the market that can run the previous generation of Windows.
Windows is the best example of a software that always manages to completely nullify or even negate the Moore’s law.
Don’t worry! Eventually, they will find a “cure,” such as Windows moving to a cloud-only model where your PC becomes a glorified dumb terminal!
So like Windows 365, but for consumers.
That’s probably not the worst option for most consumers. People are horrible about keeping their shit updated.
Most people only use their computers for web browsing anyways, and many people buy systems that are way more powerful than what they actually need. I’ve had to talk a ton of people out of buying i7 laptops just for Office and the internet.
I’ve built and maintained Citrix VDI environments for a global company, and once people get over the “this is new” hurdle, they love it.
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For windows, yes. For Linux and OSx, 8gb si still ok for most usecase
With 8G oom killer will kill my Firefox process.
I was evaluating Linux desktop prior to switching my work pc to Linux with an 8G VM and it wasn’t enough for just browsing and general tinkering.
While 8GB is typically enough for Linux today, it may not be enough a few years from now. Buying a laptop with 8GB of soldered in RAM would limit the useful life of it.
It will probably depend on distro. Some distros might get more bloated, but I think most won’t do anything that makes them unusable on lower-spec hardware, especially those that specifically have low system requirements as one of their core tenets.
Everything seems to get more bloated over time. An 8GB system probably won’t become unusable soon, but things will certainly begin to run less smoothly to the point that many people would replace the computer. Browsers and electron apps are RAM hogs.
It depends on the use case, but for what it’s worth on a 4GB Android tablet, I can run VSCode + Chromium/Firefox via Termux without too much trouble. ~2GB of memory is taken by Android, so 8GB on a proper Linux system is more like 3x more memory available. It would take a massive amount of bloat to make an impact. My main concern would like with websites being wasteful with both memory and CPU usage via JS, rather than the browser itself becoming bloated.
Just to run the OS sure, but what about the ever enlarging bloated software?
That would depend largely on the use-case and specific software. I’m fairly confident that Lyx isn’t going to become bloated any time soon, but I can see that happening especially with proprietary alternatives like Word (ignoring for a moment Word isn’t on Linux). It all really depends on whether or not a less bloated alternative exists.
Yep, browsing, developing, listening to music all alright on 8GB, could probably run on even 4.
My memory idles on around 3341MiB with a browser and just a few basic daemons like Syncthing used in mint cinnamaon. 4GB is pretty tight unless you are willing to make some behavioural changes or use a less friendly distro. But 8GB is more than enough.
Different story trying to run VMs on my server, though.
8 GB is the absolute bare fucking minimum for most computers these days
I keep seeing this statement all around the web but it is still amazing that we need that much RAM even for today.
Don’t get me wrong, I know 8 GB is becoming the standard even for mobile phones, so it is only logical to assume to bump this number for PCs (why no 12 GBS of RAM? IDK) and I have been using 16 GBs of RAM for 10 years now, it is a MacBook Pro and for me Apple does not make it clear to see how much of that RAM I’m actually using… Regardless RAM has never been a problem for me, with casual usage, and I always thought 8 GBs should work the same for even a lighter usage, why do I say that? Because before moving to such a Mac I used a laptop with 4 GBs of RAM around 2011-2014 and it was a pain in the ass to use (the processor was shit as well) for simple navigation for my thesis… So yeah if you think 8 GBs is bad, try 4 GBs.
Another reason I think 8 GBs is “a high amount for casual usage” is that my work PC had also 4 GBs of RAM, but there was not a reason to hoard tabs and such, so it was very manageable (also the processor wasn’t shit, but it was like a Core i5 or something like that, the usual office PCs you see and know), if we are talking about bottlenecks it would be the shitty HDD speeds LMAO.
What I think you guys all mean with 8 GBs of RAM is the bare minimum for nowadays standard is if you use it for IT related topics or you like to hoard stuff in it (which ain’t bad, unused RAM is wasted RAM after all) or simply depend on heavy programs which ain’t the web browser, for casuals I’d say 6 GBs would be a fair number, although it is not usual, and fuck 4 GBs of RAM in 2024, for any kind of device lol (I bet offices still use that dog shit).
Anyway I’d personally aim for 16 GBs of RAM or more regardless, for any of my future purchases, because I like to keep my stuff for years to come.
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Because computing architecture is based around powers of 2, and having memory that follows that pattern is more efficient.
But what about Android phones? I see there are not many issues on that side with that amount.
Try having Chrome, Spotify, and Discord open all at once. You’re going to start pushing that 8 GB further than you’d imagine.
Yeah, I see a pattern here, all of that is Chrome lol.
My former work PC (which I mentioned before) that had 4 GBs of RAM required to be running always Windows 11 with Chrome, Microsoft Dynamics, Outlook, Microsoft Word, Excel, Sumatra PDF and some other few apps, so yeah I agree it was miserable, but I remember I could have Spotify as well, and AFAIK there are still Chromebooks shipped with 4 GBs of RAM? Granted they are more alike to a phone than a PC.
(looking at you Chrome devs, and anyone who uses Electron).
Definitely, my girlfriend uses a lot Notion on my Mac, and while the RAM isn’t an issue there we can see the fans spinning non stop when it is in use lol, I told her to open it on a Firefox tab and it was much much quieter.
why no 12 GBS of RAM?
Because there were no 6 or 12 GB modules. But that changes with DDR5
I am on the poorer side and living in one of the central European countries (yeah I’m a teen)
I only have a core 2 duo desktop with 3 GB of ram and a laptop with a i5 also with 3gb of ram, both only HDD machines
The desktop now runs Linux, but because it has components even Intel doesn’t want to list on their website (the mobo) it runs it pretty poorly (also I bricked it somehow not run windows or any other usb install media, which is a big problem), the laptop runs windows 7 (it literally refuses to open the update utility I downloaded from MS’s website, so that’s that, two obsolete machines, that are absolutely horrendous to do anything with (not to mention my shitty 350$ phone is more powerful than both of them combined)
My Win10 PC with just my default apps open, which is mainly Firefox, Steam, a few other Launchers, Obsidian and Messaging clients - 8GB definitly doesn’t cut it today anymore. Running a newer game smashes the 16GB border easily.
8GB was the bare minimum in 2010. It’s amazing how the increase of memory just stopped.
Didn’t memory get heaps expensive for a while there?
I seem to remember that, for a couple years after DDR4 became the standard, it was significantly more expensive than DDR3.
I have 8 and am able to play 4x games at high settings w/o significant lag until late game lol. People really tend to blow this one out of proportion. Unless you’re an incredibly heavy user you probably don’t need more than 8 and 16 still feels luxurious.
“Incredibly heavy user” here, my Windows 11 boots into 9GB thanks to a few tools and a LibreOffice preloader… then gets close to 16GB the moment I start a few VMs and some dev containers in VSCode.
Fortunately, when I got this laptop on a -50% sale with just 8GB, I made sure that I’d be able to add a 32GB memory stick… so now it keeps running with up to 20GB of cache, and it flies.
Compared to the average person, yes, you are a very heavy user. Most people use their laptop for little more than browsing the internet.
I browse the internet on a phone or a tablet… don’t really get people who use a laptop just for that. Running some office software, is the minimum I see as the need for a laptop, when it isn’t drawing, 2D or 3D design, audio/video, or something programming related. Maybe gaming, but there seem to be better options for that too (either a desktop, a Steam Deck, a console, or a phone/tablet again).
That’s the thing. WHY should it need that? What is the OS doing that could possibly justify that level of memory use?
- The browser
- Electron apps
- Prefetching
- AI shit/telemetry
Other than a browser, I had none of these on my Linux machine and I could comfortably run on 4GB of RAM
Another reason to move to Linux ;P
Ubuntu is by far the most popular distro and it is no more efficient than Windows, on the contrary. RAM usage in particular is worse.
Try Linux Mint with XFCE. I don’t see this RAM usage issue at all. I have Firefox open with several other apps in the background again running XFCE with Linux Mint (Based on Ubuntu), it’s using 1.9GB RAM total (thus below the 2GB).
I may have 128Gb in my current rig (Dell Precision T7610), but if this is the way you’re gonna be bloating Windows 12, imma gonna be running to OpenSUSE or some BSD.
Yes, I use Win10Privacy to lobotomize all of the spyware and cruftware that comes with Windows. But it’s gotta be re-run after every significant Windows update.
Already switched to linux
I have 32 gigs of ram and this shit is going to make me switch to Linux as well.
I do not want an OS that demands half of my processing power just to run in the background. I see absolutely no reason for an OS to demand 2-4 gigs of ram, let alone up to 16
Jesus Christ, what are they doing? Emulating the OS in fucking Minecraft!?
JavaOS
Wait, we talking dedotated wam?!
Plausibily, they could be trying to dictate the minimum standard for budget laptops, win11 doesn’t really need a TPM, it’s in the minimum spec so that every laptop is forced to have one.
The article mentions AI. 16gigs feels far too little to run a LLM of respectable size so I wonder what exactly this means? Feels like no one is gonna be happy about a 16gig LLM (high RAM usage and bad AI features)
Of fucking course it’s AI, why the hell wouldn’t it be AI. For fuck sake, it’s like they want their users to switch to Linux.
No 16 gigs is ok for an LLM
On your gpu
My next OS will be some kind of Linux. I just had to reinstall Windows 11 because it corrupted it’s install after some time. I had to uninstall so much crap and regedit so many thinks just to get it back to where I was before. I don’t want Bing search in my windows search results. I don’t want your stupid widgets and I don’t want your browser or 90% of your default apps. And no I don’t want office 360 or onedrive. So stop forcing it into my face. When Linux gets Plasma 6 and HDR support there is only holding me back my Nvidia GPUs Linux compatibility. While I hah to install windows 11 again I played a lot of games on my Steam Deck! It’s is awesome and only some games with obscure anti cheat don’t run. (well some times they don’t run on windows too)
Just saying, but tweaking stuff via regedit is a surefire way to get your Windows install corrupted sooner or later.
dism, sfc… and disabling the preview update channel, are your friends to have a stable Windows install.
If you don’t want Bing results in your search, then use something like Everything to search for files. It’s faster, and will only show you files, all of them.
The widgets you can disable, and with Powertoys even bypass the start menu completely.
nvidia opensourced their drivers because of that lapsus kid.
the community is already building a state of the art open driver for nvidia 2xxxx and above.
only a matter of time, but even then nvidia is pretty usable with the proprietary drivers nowadays.
Anyone an idea or a link what kind of AI they want to run on people’s machines? Will it add something for the user or just annoy you and add more targeted advertising?
The second one.
Even as far back as XP/Vista Microsoft has wanted to run the file system as more of an adaptive database than a classical hierarchical file system.
The leaked beta for Vista had this included and it ran like absolute shit, mostly because harddrives are slow and ram was at a premium, especially in Vista as it was such a bloated piece or shit.
NTFS has since evolved to include more and more of these “smart” file system components.
Now they want to go full on with this “smart” approach to the filesystem.
It’ll still be slow and shit, just like it was 2 decades ago.
Even further back, the first attempt was around 1990 and Windows NT.
The beta for Vista with WinFS, was not exactly “leaked”, it was given to developers at a MS conference.
NTFS doesn’t have any of that, they’ve shifted the functionality to the Search Indexer… and it’s what most people use when they hit the Win key and start typing the name of some file.
Clippy v.2.
Hehe, pretty sure it’s that. With Microsoft’s history of letting loose racist and unhinged chatbots… I’m eager to get to know Clippy v2.
They’re going to make us miss that clueless little bastard.
Going to need 32 GB of RAM or more plus a GPU with 48 GB of VRAM just to run Win12 w/ AI subsystem so you have enough headroom to run a program or two
